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AI: Accelerated Incompetence

slater.dev

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Re: AI: Accelerated Incompetence

#261
post #65

You know, sometimes I feel that all this discourse about AI for coding reflects the difference between software engineers and data scientists / machine learning engineers. Both often work with unclear requirements, and sometimes may face floating bugs which are hard to fix, but in most cases, SWE create software that is expected to always behave in a certain way. It is reproducible, can pass tests, and the tooling is…

Based on my experience as an MLE I would never use any of the current 'AI' offerings, so whatever bias you are suggesting is very recent.

Re: AI: Accelerated Incompetence

#262
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great analogy. 3d printing is awesome and incredibly useful tech. Truly world changing. But injection molding is here to stay.

Even the phrase "world-changing" might be a bit too strong. It's enabled some acceleration of product prototyping and it has democratized hardware design a little bit. Some little companies are building some buildings using 3D printing techniques. Speaking as someone who owns and uses a 3D printer daily, I think the biggest impact it's had is that it's a fun hobby, which doesn't strike me as "world-changing."

That's fair, but don't sell them short. A 3d printed gun just killed a CEO. Ukrainian drones are using 3d printed parts to drop bombs.

Between that and the changed game for hobbyists, the world is meaningfully different.

Most world-changing inventions do so subtly. Atom bombs are the exception, not the rule.

Re: AI: Accelerated Incompetence

#263
Per Michael Tolkien's writing the dialog to Robert Altman's movie The Player (1992):

(A movie studio executive who believes a screen writer has been harassing him with threatening postcards has just murdered the screenwriter the previous night. The executive arrives late at a mid-morning studio meeting as other executives argue about the lavishness of writers' fees)

Movie studio boss: Griffin, you're here! We were just discussing the significance of writing. Maybe you have something to add?

Executive: I was just thinking what an interesting concept it is to eliminate the writer from the artistic process. If we could just get rid of these actors and directors, maybe we've got something here.

(Assistant hands the executive another postcard)

Re AI chat:

High school students who are illiterate now use AI chat to orchestrate the concoction of course papers they can't understand, then instructors use AI chat to grade the work. The grads apply for jobs and get selected by AI chat, then interviewed by managers using AI chat. The lucky hires are woken up by their IOs and transported to an office at an unknown destination by autonomous cars. Their work is to follow scripts emitted by AI chat to apply AI chat to guide refinement of processes, further feeding LLMs. Once returned to the home cubicle after the shift, the specialist consumes the latest cartoons and sexts with an AI companion. The IO sounds the alarm and it's time to sleep.

If the MCP guys can just cut out the middle men, I think we've got something here!

The threat of the new machines is not AGI overlords who will exterminate an optional humanity. The threat is an old one that's been proven over millennia of history: the conversion of human beings into slaves.

Re: AI: Accelerated Incompetence

#264
post #27

It's occurred to me more and more that I need to repurpose 90s.dev into a non-AI community, focused on the ancient art of writing software well, and welcoming to all who honed that craft. What would it need to start with? Forum? Mailing list? Aggregate blog from multiple authors like hackernoon? [edit] Makeshift mailing list for those interested: https://github.com/sdegutis/90s.dev/issues/2 (subscribe or comment to "…

Subscribe or comment?? Im in the target market for this. Nothing puts me off doing something than the S word, though forums are fucked due to LLMs and bots, so that option is out. The only way anything like this can work is invite only, with each referrer responsible for invite tree. Your community needs to be good enough that loosing access encourages goid behaviour. This works exceedingly well for certain communities online...

Re: AI: Accelerated Incompetence

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3d printing will slowly edge its way into more manufacturing. The humble stepping motor really is eating the world. 3dp is one manifestation of it! Back to AI though. I just checked the customer support page of a hyped AI app generator and its what you expect: "doesn't work on complex project" "wastes all my tokens" and "how to get a refund" These things are over promising and a future miracle is required to justify…

> 3d printing will slowly I'm not sure why you continued using words when you summed up 3D printing with those four words. In the time it takes to print 1 object, you could have molded thousands of them. 3D printing has done a lot for manufacturing in terms of prototyping and making the first thing while improving flexibility for iterations. Using them for mass production is just not a sane concept.

Yes for sure. 3d printing isn't going to replace everything because 3d printing is a type of manufacturing method with pros and cons.

But in the time it took me to convert a picture of my cat to a 3d model using AI and print it, I could have ... got on the phone to the injection molding lab, and asked about availability to produce the mold for that cat.

3d printing fits the niche where either you need to model or make something bespoke that it isn't worth setting up custom machinery.

The point is 3d printing is useful and the tech is improving and it will get more and more useful. It won't take over manufacturing of course (just like Rust won't take over all programming).

Re: AI: Accelerated Incompetence

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> LLMs are only implementing a limited aspect of meaning: mostly association and "some extension". > Whenver an LLM appears to partake in more aspects of meaning it is only cheating: it is using familiarity with families of associations to overcome its disabilities. I'm not convinced there's anything more to "meaning" - we seem to be defining concepts through relationship to other concepts, and ground that directly o…

Is this based on analogising LLMs to animal mental capacities, or based on a scientific study of these capacities? ie., is this confirmation bias, or science? One can always find a kind of confirmation bias analysis here, which "saves the appearances", ie., one can always say "take a measurement set of people's mental capacities, given in their linguistic behaviour" and find such behaviours apparent in LLMs. This wil…

> Is this based on analogising LLMs to animal mental capacities, or based on a scientific study of these capacities? ie., is this confirmation bias, or science?

- On how embeddings work;

- On the observation that in very high-dimensional space you can encode a lot of information in relative arrangement of things;

- On the observation that the end result (LLMs) are too good at talking and responding like people in nuanced way for this to be uncorrelated;

- On noticing similarities behind embeddings in high-dimensional spaces and what we arrive when we try to express what we mean by "concept", "understanding" and "meaning", or even how we learn languages and acquire knowledge - there's a strong undertone of defining things in terms of similarity to other things, which themselves are defined the same way (recursively). Naively, it sounds like infinite regress, but it's exactly what embeddings are about.

- On the observation that the goal function for language model training is, effectively, "produce output that makes sense to humans", in fully general meaning of that statement. Given constraints on size and compute, this is pressuring the model to develop structures that are at least functionally equivalent to our own thinking process; even if we're not there yet, we're definitely pushing the models in that direction.

- On the observation that most of the failure modes of LLMs also happen to humans, up to and including "hallucinations" - but they mostly happen at the "inner monologue" / "train of thought" level, and we do extra things (like explicit "system 2" reasoning, or tools) to fix them before we write, speak or act.

- And finally, on the fact that researchers have been dissecting and studying inner workings of LLMs, and managed to find direct evidence of them encoding concepts and using them in reasoning; see e.g. the couple major Anthropic studies, in which they demonstrated the ability to identify concrete concepts, follow their "activations" during inference process, and even control the inference outcome by actively suppressing or amplifying those activations; the results are basically what you'd expect if you believed the "concepts" inside LLMs were indeed concepts as we understand them.

- Plus a bunch of other related observations and introspections, including but not limited to paying close attention to how my own kids (currently 6yo, 4yo and 1.5yo) develop their cognitive skills, and what are their failure modes. I used to joke that GPT-4 is effectively a 4yo that memorized half the Internet, after I noticed that stories produced by LLMs of that time and those of my own kid follow eerily similar patterns, up to and including what happens when the beginning falls out of the context window. I estimated that at 4yo, my eldest daughter had a context window of about 30s long, and I could see it grow with each passing week :).

That's in a gist, what adds up to my current perspective on LLMs. Might not be hard science, but I find a lot of things pointing in the direction of us narrowing down on the core functionality that also exists in our brain (but not the whole thing, obviously) - and very little that would point otherwise.

(I actively worry that it might be my mental model is too "wishy washy" and lets me interpret anything in a way that fits it. So far, I haven't noticed any warning signs, but I did notice that none of the quirks or failure modes feel surprising.)

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I'm not sure if I got your videogame analogy the way you intended, but FWIW, we also learn and experience lots of stuff indirectly; the whole point of language and communication is to transfer understanding this way - and a lot of information is embodied in the larger patterns and structures of what we say (or don't say) and how we say it. LLM training data is not random, it's highly correlated with human experience, so the information for general understanding of how we think and perceive the world is encoded there, implicitly, and at least in theory the training process will pick up on it.

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I don't have a firm opinion on some of the specifics you mention, just couple general heuristic/insights that tell me it could be possible we narrowed down on the actual thing our own minds are doing:

1. We don't know what drives our own mental processes either. It might be we discover LLMs are "cheating", but we might also discover they're converging to the same mechanisms/structures our own minds use. I don't have any strong reason to assume the former over the latter, because we're not designing LLMs to cheat.

2. Human brains are evolved, not designed. They're also the dumbest possible design evolution could arrive at - we're the first to cross the threshold after which our knowledge-based technological evolution outpaced natural evolution by orders of magnitude. All we've achieved to date, we did with a brain that was the nature's first prototype that worked.

3. Given the way evolution works - small, random, greedy increments that have to be incrementally useful at every step - it stands to reason that whatever the fundamental workings of a mind are, they must not be that complicated, and they can be built up incrementally through greedy optimization. Humans are a living proof of that.

4. (most speculative) It's unlikely there are multiple alternative implementations of thinking minds that are very different from each other, yet all are equally easy to reach through random walk, and that evolution just picked one of those and run with it. It's more likely that, when we get to that point (we might already be there), we'll find the same computational design nature did. But even if not, diffing ours and nature's solution will tell us much about ourselves.

Re: AI: Accelerated Incompetence

#267

LLMs are amazing at writing code and terrible at owning it. Every line you accept without understanding is borrowed comprehension, which you’ll repay during maintenance with high interest. It feels like free velocity. But it's probably more like tech debt at ~40 % annual interest. As a tribe, we have to figure out how to use AI to automate typing and NOT thinking.

This is a very good analogy. And this interest rate can probably be significantly reduced by applying TDD and reducing the size of isolated subsystems. That may start to look like microservices. I generally don’t like both for traditional development, but current LLMs both make them easier and more useful.

And the “rule of three” basically ceases to be applicable between components — either the code has localized impact, or is a part of rock-solid foundational library. Intermediate cases just explode the refactoring complexity.

Re: AI: Accelerated Incompetence

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you basing this on? Is there an “inventiveness test” that humans can pass but LLMs don’t? I’m not aware of any.

I assume you ignored "teleology" because you concede the point, otherwise feel free to take it. " Is there an “inventiveness test” that humans can pass but LLMs don’t?" Of course, any topic where there is no training data available and that cannot be extrapolated by simply mixing the existing data. Of course that is harder to test on current unknowns and unknown unknowns. But it is trivial to test on retrospective kn…

Now there's a sensible point. Can someone do that, so that we can put some of these points definitely to bed?

Re: AI: Accelerated Incompetence

#269
post #65

You know, sometimes I feel that all this discourse about AI for coding reflects the difference between software engineers and data scientists / machine learning engineers. Both often work with unclear requirements, and sometimes may face floating bugs which are hard to fix, but in most cases, SWE create software that is expected to always behave in a certain way. It is reproducible, can pass tests, and the tooling is…

Yea, the problem is that most people expect things to be absolute and correct outside of engineering.

I love the gray areas and probabilities and creativity of software...but not everyone does.

So the real danger is in everyone assuming the AI model is, must be, and always will be correct. They misunderstand the tool they are using (or directing others to use).

Hmm. It's like autopilot on the Tesla. You aren't supposed to take your hands off the wheel. You're supposed to pay attention. But people use it incorrectly. If they get into an accident, then people want to blame the machine. It's not. It's the fault of person who didn't read the instructions.

Re: AI: Accelerated Incompetence

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 3d printing will slowly I'm not sure why you continued using words when you summed up 3D printing with those four words. In the time it takes to print 1 object, you could have molded thousands of them. 3D printing has done a lot for manufacturing in terms of prototyping and making the first thing while improving flexibility for iterations. Using them for mass production is just not a sane concept.

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