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What is HDR, anyway?

lux.camera

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Re: What is HDR, anyway?

#261
post #256
post #3

HDR on displays is actually largely uncomfortable for me. They should reserve the brightest HDR whites for things like the sun itself and caustics, not white walls in indoor photos. As for tone mapping, I think the examples they show tend way too much towards flat low-local-contrast for my tastes.

Most "HDR" monitors are junk that can't display HDR. The HDR formats/signals are designed for brightness levels and viewing conditions that nobody uses. The end result is a complete chaos. Every piece of the pipeline doing something wrong, and then the software tries to compensate for it by emitting doubly wrong data, without even having reliable information about what it needs to compensate for. https://docs.google.…

What we really need is some standards that everybody follows. The reason normal displays work so well is that everyone settled on sRGB, and as long as a display gets close to that, say 95% sRGB, everyone except maybe a few graphics designers will have a n equivalent experience.

But HDR, it's a minefield of different display qualities, color spaces, standards. It's no wonder that nobody gets it right and everyone feels confused.

HDR on a display that has peak brightness of 2000 nits will look completely different than a display with 800 nits, and they both get to claim they are HDR.

We should have a standard equivalent to color spaces. Set, say, 2000 nits as 100% of HDR. Then a 2000 nit display gets to claim it's 100% HDR. A 800 nit display gets to claim 40% HDR, etc. A 2500 nit display could even use 125% HDR in it's marketing.

It's still not perfect - some displays (OLED) can only show peak brightness over a portion of the screen. But it would be an improvement.

Re: What is HDR, anyway?

#262
post #243

> Our eyes can see both just fine. This gets to a gaming rant of mine: Our natural vision can handle these things because our eyes scan sections of the scene with constant adjustment (light-level, focus) while our brain is compositing it together into what feels like a single moment. However certain effects in games (i.e. "HDR" and Depth of Field) instead reduce the fidelity of the experience. These features limp alo…

https://www.realtimerendering.com/blog/thought-for-the-day/

It's crazy that post is 15 years old. Like the OP and this post get at, HDR isn't really a good description of what's happening. HDR often means one or more of at least 3 different things (capture, storage, and presentation). It's just the sticker slapped on advertising.

Things like lens flares, motion blur, film grain, and shallow depth of field are mimicking cameras and not what being there is like--but from a narrative perspective we experience a lot of these things through tv and film. Its visual shorthand. Like Star Wars or Battlestar Galactica copying WWII dogfight footage even though it's less like what it would be like if you were there. High FPS television can feel cheap while 24fps can feel premium and "filmic."

Often those limitations are in place so the experience is consistent for everyone. Games will have you set brightness and contrast--I had friends that would crank everything up to avoid jump scares and to clearly see objects intended to be hidden in shadows. Another reason for consistent presentation is for unfair advantages in multiplayer.

Re: What is HDR, anyway?

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but your monitor manages 1000-1500 and only in a small window. Owning a display that can do 1300+ nits sustained across a 100% window has been the biggest display upgrade I think I have ever had. It's given me a tolerance for LCD, a technology I've hated since the death of CRTs and turned me away from OLED. There was a time I would have said i'd never own a non OLED display again. But a capable HDR display changed…

Hello fellow CRT owner. What is your use case? Retro video games? PC games? Movies?

Hello indeed!

> What is your use case? Retro video games? PC games? Movies?

All of the above! The majority of my interest largely stems from the fact that for whatever reason, I am INCREDIBLY sensitive to sample and hold motion blur. Whilst I tolerate it for modern gaming because I largely have no choice, CRT's mean I do not for my retro gaming, which I very much enjoy. (I was very poor growing up, so most of it for me is not even nostalgia, most of these games are new to me.)

Outside of that, we have a "retro" corner in our home with a 32" trinitron. I collect laserdisc/VHS and we have "retro video" nights where for whatever reason, we watch the worst possible quality copies of movies we could get in significantly higher definition. Much the same as videogames, I was not exposed to a lot of media growing up, my wife has also not seen many things because she was in Russia back then, so there is a ton for us to catch up on very slowly and it just makes for a fun little date night every now and again.

Sadly though, as I get ready to take on a mortgage, it's likely most of my CRT's will be sold, or at least the broadcast monitors. I do not look forward to it haha.

Re: What is HDR, anyway?

#264
post #243

> Our eyes can see both just fine. This gets to a gaming rant of mine: Our natural vision can handle these things because our eyes scan sections of the scene with constant adjustment (light-level, focus) while our brain is compositing it together into what feels like a single moment. However certain effects in games (i.e. "HDR" and Depth of Field) instead reduce the fidelity of the experience. These features limp alo…

I'm with you on depth of field, but I don't understand why you think HDR reduces the fidelity of a game. If you have a good display (eg an OLED) then the brights are brighter and simultaneously there is more detail in the blacks. Why do you think that is worse than SDR?

Check out this old post: https://www.realtimerendering.com/blog/thought-for-the-day/

HDR in games would frequently mean clipping highlights and adding bloom. Prior the "HDR" exposure looked rather flat.

Re: What is HDR, anyway?

#265
post #65

Note for Firefox users - view the page in Chrome to see more of what they are talking about. I was very confused by some of the images, and it was a world of difference when I tried again in Chrome. Things began to make a lot more sense - is there a flag I am missing in Firefox on the Mac?

HDR support in Chrome (Android) looks still broken for me. For one, some of the images on the blog have a posterization effect, which is clearly wrong. Second, the HDR effect seems to be implemented in a very crude way, which causes the whole Android UI (including the Android status bar at the top) to become brighter when HDR content is on screen. That's clearly not right. Though, of course, this might also be some i…

Yeah, the HDR videos on my Asus Zenfone 9 (on Android 14) look like really terrible.

Re: What is HDR, anyway?

#266
post #243

> Our eyes can see both just fine. This gets to a gaming rant of mine: Our natural vision can handle these things because our eyes scan sections of the scene with constant adjustment (light-level, focus) while our brain is compositing it together into what feels like a single moment. However certain effects in games (i.e. "HDR" and Depth of Field) instead reduce the fidelity of the experience. These features limp alo…

I had a similar complaint with the few 3D things I watched when that has been hyped in the past (e.g., when Avatar came out in cinemas, and when 3D home TVs seemed to briefly become a thing 15 years ago). It felt like Hollywood was giving me the freedom to immerse myself, but then simultaneously trying to constrain that freedom and force me to look at specific things in specific ways. I don't know what the specific s…

Stereo film has its own limitations. Sadly, shooting for stereo was expensive and often corners were cut just to get it to show up in a theater where they can charge a premium for a stereo screening. Home video was always a nightmare--nobody wants to wear glasses (glassesless stereo TVs had a very narrow viewing angle).

It may not be obvious, but film has a visual language. If you look at early film, it wasn't obvious if you cut to something that the audience would understand what was going on. Panning from one object to another implies a connection. It's built on the visual language of still photography (things like rule of thirds, using contrast or color to direct your eye, etc). All directing your eye.

Stereo film has its own limitations that were still being explored. In a regular film, you would do a rack focus to connect something in the foreground to the background. In stereo, when there's a rack focus people don't follow the camera the same way. In regular film, you could show someone's back in the foreground of a shot and cut them off at the waist. In stereo, that looks weird.

When you're presenting something you're always directing where someone is looking--whether its a play, movie, or stereo show. The tools are just adapted for the medium.

I do think it worked way better for movies like Avatar or How to Train Your Dragon and was less impressive for things like rom coms.

Re: What is HDR, anyway?

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cheap displays adding broken HDR400 support destroyed so much public opinion on HDR. Not actually providing a wider range but accepting the HDR signal would at least have been a minor improvement if the tone mapping weren't completely broken to the point most people just associate HDR with a washed out picture.

>The cheap displays adding broken HDR400 support destroyed so much public opinion on HDR. It's funny because the display I have that does this was a relatively premium Odyssey G7 which at $700 isn't at all a cheap monitor. (I like it, it's just not at all HDR, or at least not perceivably so compared to Apple devices and an OLED TV)

The only HDR monitors I have actually enjoyed (which, admittedly, is a slightly higher bar than "most of this price aren't completely miscalibrated") have been $1500+ which is a bit ridiculous considering far cheaper TVs do far better with HDR (though tend to suck as monitors). In the Odyssey line this would be the Neo G9 options, but I've never went home with one because they lack flat variants for the ones with good HDR.

Re: What is HDR, anyway?

#268
post #123

It seems like a mistake to lump HDR capture, HDR formats and HDR display together, these are very different things. The claim that Ansel Adams used HDR is super likely to cause confusion, and isn’t particularly accurate. We’ve had HDR formats and HDR capture and edit workflows since long before HDR displays. The big benefit of HDR capture & formats is that your “negative” doesn’t clip super bright colors and doesn’t…

> It seems like a mistake to lump HDR capture, HDR formats and HDR display together, these are very different things. These are all related things. When you talk about color, you can be talking about color cameras, color image formats, and color screens, but the concept of color transcends the implementation. > The claim that Ansel Adams used HDR is super likely to cause confusion, and isn’t particularly accurate. Th…

I agree capture, format and display are closely related. But HDR capture and processing specifically developed outside of HDR display devices, and use of HDR displays changes how HDR images are used compared to LDR displays.

> The post never said Adams used HDR. I very carefully chose the words

Hey I’m sorry for criticizing, but I honestly feel like you’re being slightly misleading here. The sentence “What if I told you that analog photographers captured HDR as far back as 1857?” is explicitly claiming that analog photographers use “HDR” capture, and the Ansel Adams sentence that follows appears to be merely a specific example of your claim. The result of the juxtaposition is that the article did in fact claim Adams used HDR, even if you didn’t quite intend to.

I think you’re either misunderstanding me a little, or maybe unaware of some of the context of HDR and its development as a term of art in the computer graphics community. Film’s 12 stops is not really “high” range by HDR standards, and a little exposure latitude isn’t where “HDR” came from. The more important part of HDR was the intent to push toward absolute physical units like luminance. That doesn’t just enable deferred exposure, it enables physical and perceptual processing in ways that aren’t possible with film. It enables calibrated integration with CG simulation that isn’t possible with film. And it enables a much wider rage of exposure push/pull than you can do when going from 12 stops to 8. And of course non-destructive digital deferred exposure at display time is quite different from a print exposure.

Perhaps it’s useful to reflect on the fact that HDR has a counterpart called LDR that’s referring to 8 bits/channel RGB. With analog photography, there is no LDR, thus zero reason to invent the notion of a ‘higher’ range. Higher than what? High relative to what? Analog cameras have exposure control and thus can capture any range you want. There is no ‘high’ range in analog photos, there’s just range. HDR was invented to push against and evolve beyond the de-facto digital practices of the 70s-90s, it is not a statement about what range can be captured by a camera.

Re: What is HDR, anyway?

#269
post #62

> A big problem is that it costs the TV, Film, and Photography industries billions of dollars (and a bajillion hours of work) to upgrade their infrastructure. For context, it took well over a decade for HDTV to reach critical mass. This is also true for consumers. I don't own a single 4k or HDR display. I probably won't own an HDR display until my TV dies, and I probably won't own a 4k display until I replace my work…

Few things are in absolutes. Yes most consumers wont have every screen hdr nor 4k, but most consumers use a modern smartphone and just about every modern smartphone from the past half decade or more has hdr of some level. I absolutely loathe consuming content on a mobile screen, but its the reality is the vast majority are using phone and tablets most the time.

How would I know if my android phone has an HDR screen?

[edit]

Some googling suggested I check in the Netflix app; at least Netflix thinks my phone does not support HDR. (Unihertz Jelly Max)

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