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UK threaten to enter Ecuadorian embassy and arrest Julian Assange

bbc.co.uk

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Re: UK threaten to enter Ecuadorian embassy and arrest Julian Assange

#261

Post by philwelch »

droithomme wrote: post #258
philwelch wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe "justify" is too strong a word. The central principle is that having sex with someone who does not consent is rape. It doesn't matter if their clothes are on or if you're in bed with them. It doesn't matter if they consented to protected sex, but you chose to have unprotected sex with them instead even though they didn't consent to it. It's still rape. To say that it isn't technically rape could mean a few thin…

Phil, these are very serious allegations you are claiming as fact. Phil, have Anna Ardin or Sofia Wilén said the sex was rape? For two full years now, in multiple discussions about Mr. Assange, you have consistently participated in threads promoting that Assange is a rapist, that women have accused him of rape, and that he is charged with rape. Yet, despite being requested for citations showing your accusations are f…

> Phil, these are very serious allegations you are claiming as fact.

Not at all. I simply think the Swedish justice system should fully process these accusations, and whatever outcome or verdict is reached will simply be whatever it is.

I am dismayed that in many rape cases, it's easier to perform a character assassination on the alleged victims and intimidate them from testifying. I'm worried that people with some sort of political sympathy for Assange due to his work with WikiLeaks will engage in this kind of character assassination and intimidation. Fortunately, the Swedish prosecutors seem to have collected depositions already, so Assange's alleged victims might not have to go through the agony of reliving their experiences on a worldwide stage only to be called liars or sluts, or to be accused of being paid off by the CIA.

Still, there's a very high chance that even if Assange is guilty, he will not be convicted. I simply hope that if he is guilty, he is convicted, and that if he is innocent, that he is not only acquitted but fully exonerated. No innocent man deserves that kind of cloud over his head.

Unfortunately, Assange isn't really helping matters.

> For two full years now, in multiple discussions about Mr. Assange, you have consistently participated in threads...

You seem to be keeping very close tabs on my activity on HN. If you had an email address in your profile I would ask you about this privately, but you seem determined to retain your pseudonymity, so I will ask publicly. Why exactly are you so interested in my comments in particular?

Re: UK threaten to enter Ecuadorian embassy and arrest Julian Assange

#262

Post by philwelch »

rdtsc wrote: post #232
philwelch wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not jump to conclusions here. The US hasn't done anything to Assange.

That's not what I was implying. The argument is that he fears they will do something to him. And whether that fear is based in reality. The response of the grandparent was 'no' because US legal system can't technically touch him. My response to that was that I am not exactly sure if the world should trust US in light of its actions in the last 10 years.

We're still hip deep in hypotheticals.

Re: UK threaten to enter Ecuadorian embassy and arrest Julian Assange

#263

Post by philwelch »

vidarh wrote: post #238
philwelch wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the embassy is doing something as unusual as harboring an accused rapist, isn't that enough?

If Britain does this, then from now on every Chinese dissident that seeks refuge in a Western embassy will somehow magically find themselves charged with rape, and Chinese police will stand ready to enter to arrest him for said rape. (Substitute China for any other dictatorship as you please) It is an incredibly bad precedent to set, and I very much doubt they will go there. Leaving police posted outside until people…

Let me get this straight--a citizen of Australia is a "dissident" against the United States, so the US government arranges for him to be accused of rape in Sweden, leading him to refuse to surrender to British police and hide in the Ecuadorian embassy.

If the British enter the Ecuadorian embassy to extradite Assange to Sweden, this sets a precedent for the Chinese government to enter embassies in China to arrest Chinese dissidents accused of rape in China? No, because in the case of Assange, the idea that he's some kind of political prisoner subject to a CIA plot lies somewhere between conspiracy theory and delusion of grandeur, while in the case of Chinese dissidents, it would be plainly transparent what China was trying to do.

Plus, it turns out that China gets their dissidents to stop hiding out in western embassies by threatening to beat their wives to death. Dictatorships are much more direct than you give them credit for: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/03/world/asia/chen-guangcheng...

Re: UK threaten to enter Ecuadorian embassy and arrest Julian Assange

#264

Post by droithomme »

philwelch wrote: post #261
droithomme wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Phil, these are very serious allegations you are claiming as fact. Phil, have Anna Ardin or Sofia Wilén said the sex was rape? For two full years now, in multiple discussions about Mr. Assange, you have consistently participated in threads promoting that Assange is a rapist, that women have accused him of rape, and that he is charged with rape. Yet, despite being requested for citations showing your accusations are f…

> Phil, these are very serious allegations you are claiming as fact. Not at all. I simply think the Swedish justice system should fully process these accusations, and whatever outcome or verdict is reached will simply be whatever it is. I am dismayed that in many rape cases, it's easier to perform a character assassination on the alleged victims and intimidate them from testifying. I'm worried that people with some s…

If I was stalking you as you are absurdly trying to assert then I'd be commenting frequently on your comments here, which I don't.

Your comments on the rape sounded familiar and I looked through past threads on Assange and was surprised to notice that you are the one bringing up and promoting the idea that the women have accused him of rape and he has been charged with rape, both which are false. The search also turned up that you are interested in the topic of rape in general and discuss it across the internet. I have no interest in your general interest in the topic of rape, but I do want to point out that your claims about Assange are bald faced lies and you have an agenda.

It would be one thing if you had heard in passing that the women had accused him of rape and he was being charged with rape and mistakenly thought it was correct. But you have a history of promoting these claims and during this time have not provided evidence either that he has been charged with rape or that either woman has claimed to have been raped. Thus you do know what the facts are, and you are intentionally choosing to lie here. There is nothing innocent about your assertions and your propaganda tactics are far from naive.

Your comments about "rape cases" where people blame the victims, "intimidate them from testifying" and engage in "character assassination" are more of your attempts to falsely promote and assert that these women have said they were raped and that he was been charged with rape, but then adds on a new accusation - there is a conspiracy to harm them right here on Hacker News! Who here is intimidating them from testifying? Name them! Rape has not been accused by the women or charged, so there is no rape case. There is no character assassination against the women to repeatedly ask you to show your evidence that rape has been charged, or that the women have accused him of rape. Cite specifically the character assassination that has occurred here. Show your evidence. Asking you to provide evidence of your claims is not character assassination against women, nor is it blaming victims, nor is it intimidating witnesses in a trial, and it is absurd rhetoric to claim these things.

Re: UK threaten to enter Ecuadorian embassy and arrest Julian Assange

#265

Post by droithomme »

philwelch wrote: post #260
droithomme wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Rape charges" Phil, do either of the women, Anna Ardin or Sofia Wilén say the sex was rape?

> The other alleged victim claims that she...woke up later in the night to find Assange having sex with her, without her consent and without a condom. Emphasis added. Source: http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2010/12/the_p... Please note that "having sex with [someone] without [their] consent" is the definition of rape.

Here are some facts:

1. Neither woman has stated Assange raped her.

2. Assange has not been charged with rape.

Here are some lies:

1. The women state that Assange raped them.

2. Assange has been charged with rape.

Here is the transcript of the interview referenced in the Naomi Wolf attack article that you have cited.

http://www.democracynow.org/seo/2010/12/20/naomi_wolf_vs_jac...

Re: UK threaten to enter Ecuadorian embassy and arrest Julian Assange

#266

Post by arrrg »

saraid216 wrote: post #138
arrrg wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe they are misguided. But the publicity of this whole thing makes their (possible?) overreaction completely explainable without any conspiracy theories.

Calling them idiots is not a conspiracy theory.

No, but it seemed to me you were suggesting my explanation didn’t make sense because they look like idiots.

Re: UK threaten to enter Ecuadorian embassy and arrest Julian Assange

#267

Post by mkramlich »

Steko wrote: post #200
philwelch wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I never said that. Quote me where I said that. You can't. I never claimed you did say that. But you introduced the notion as something "one could argue", and the only thing I'm attacking is that notion, not you personally. That's more than you can say for yourself, incidentally. That you took it personally says far more about you than it does me. When one puts forward a notion on the basis of "one could argue", som…

"But you introduced the notion as something" You keep spooning these words into his mouth but no he didn't ever say them. You think they are equivalent to what he said but they are not. What he said was 'X is arguably not rape'. That doesn't mean 'X is ok'. That means exactly what it says.

> You keep spooning these words into his mouth but no he didn't ever say them. You think they are equivalent to what he said but they are not. What he said was 'X is arguably not rape'. That doesn't mean 'X is ok'. That means exactly what it says.

BINGO. thank you. there are other intelligent, sane people on this website.

Re: UK threaten to enter Ecuadorian embassy and arrest Julian Assange

#268

Post by arrrg »

fleitz wrote: post #178
elemeno wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the world tends to have different views on requesting asylum due to political persecution vs requesting it to avoid accusations that you've committed a fairly serious criminal act.

Just to clarify things there is no charge against Assange. Assange isn't accused of any crime. Perhaps if there were Ecuadorian charges against Assange to which he could plead guilty and thus be a fugitive from international law, which would obviously require he be sent to Ecuador to serve time before going to Sweden for questioning. I wonder how Britain would feel about it's international obligations under those cir…

Because that’s how it’s done in Sweden. He will only be charged after questioning.

Re: UK threaten to enter Ecuadorian embassy and arrest Julian Assange

#269

Post by mkramlich »

runako wrote: post #42
[deleted] wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

>> he doesn't have an outstanding arrest warrant According to Wikipedia he is the subject of a European Arrest Warrant (this is presumably why he's hiding in a non-EU embassy). Edit: arrest warrants don't always/usually imply that any charges have been filed. This is not unusual. The unusual part is a person accused of rape hiding out in the embassy of a country of which he is not a citizen, in a country of which he…

> The unusual part is a person accused of rape

He has NOT been accused of rape.

Re: UK threaten to enter Ecuadorian embassy and arrest Julian Assange

#270

Post by mkramlich »

philwelch wrote: post #32
billswift wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is just conspiracy theory. Somewhat, which is why I never weighed in on it before. But if the UK is threatening something as unusual as invading an embassy, that is evidence that there is likely to be something more to the issue.

If the embassy is doing something as unusual as harboring an accused rapist, isn't that enough?

Facts: he has NOT been accused of rape. He has not been charged with rape. The two women in question have not accused him of rape or described the incidents in question as rape. There is no trial. There are no charges. And at best this is a case of he-said/she-said, with no other witnesses or evidence --- which is a situation that can be physically consistent with a framing, and thus, especially the surrounding context, needs to be treated with extreme skepticism.

To throw out just a few data points of context: the US government has a history of violating international law, violating the sovereignty of other nations, and, most recently, of violating it's own Constitution. Also consider Gitmo. And consider how Bradley Manning was treated while in custody, before/without trial, before/without even charges.

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