Accountability Sinks • Hacker News Board

Re: Accountability Sinks

#261

Post by teachrdan » Sat, May 03, 2025, 5:41 PM UTC

selfselfgo wrote: post #179

steveBK123 wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes unfortunately I've observed this in some support systems. The best way is to thread the needle between being extremely personally polite to the other human on the line, but going through the required machinations on their runbook to trigger an escalation. That is - you don't really have to behave unpleasant (raise voice, swear, be impolite, threaten) but you should just refuse to get off the line, demand escalati…

I ask for something, when they say they can’t do that. I say the magic words “Maybe your manager can do it?” You just don’t accept the possibility of your request not being fulfilled, say they are contractually obliged to do, even if you’re not sure, if all else fails reverse the charges on your card. Threatening small claims court works well. I now do that on the on the second email, do I look like a fool? Yes. Do I…

Before threatening small claims court (known to be a PITA for the plaintiff), I'll tell them that if they can't resolve it, then they should send me an email telling me so, which I'll forward to my credit card company so they can reverse the charges. Then I'll remind them that that's bad for the business because it increases their transaction fees and ask (again) if there's any way to just refund me. This works for me like 90% of the time.

Re: Accountability Sinks

#262

Post by scarface_74 » Sat, May 03, 2025, 5:46 PM UTC

dendodge wrote: post #97

cheschire wrote: post #36

I always remind myself when I have to go to the DMV[0] that I should plan on leaving with nothing more than another action or set of actions to take. I never enter the DMV expecting to complete a process, and the workers behind the counter always have this visible, visceral response when I DONT lose my fucking mind at their response to something. When I continue to be pleasant and understanding it’s like they suddenl…

Off-topic, but since you mention it, I've always been confused about what Americans always seem to be doing at the DMV. It seems to be a staple of pop culture that people are always there and the queue is always very long, but I've never known what anyone is actually trying to achieve. The DVLA in the UK doesn't have a high-street presence. I took my driving test once, then received my driving licence in the post. Wh…

You usually don’t. Licenses can be renewed online until you reach a certain age in some states where you have to go in to take an eye test. Car dealers will handle registration. If you buy from a private party you have to go in.

In metropolitan areas that have make you get car inspections like Atlanta, you go to a third party where the price is regulated and they send the results in. You still can do everything on line

Re: Accountability Sinks

#263

Post by citizenpaul » Sat, May 03, 2025, 5:51 PM UTC

amluto wrote: post #230

macNchz wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having been on both sides of this—working behind a counter and answering phones at various jobs long ago, and being someone who often surprises family and friends with my ability to extract good outcomes from customer service—I think it’s somewhat of a misconception that being as unpleasant as possible is actually effective at getting results. I fully understand that the godawful CS mazes many companies set up wind u…

As an exception to the exception, a lot of automated telephone systems have a tree of options, and they try really hard to avoid giving you a real person, and none of the options are helpful. But some of them are programmed to detect swearing and direct users to a representative. So a valid strategy is to swear at the automated system and then be polite to the real human that you get.

>none of the options are helpful

Yeah. I got locked out of my capital one account for a "fraud alert" last week. When I tried to login a message said "Call Number XXX" When I called that number I had to go through an endless phone tree and not single option was about fraud alerts or being locked out of accounts. I had to keep going through a forced chute of errors before after about 30 min I finally was able to speak to someone.

Even when I finally got a human they seemed confused about what happened and I had to be transferred several times.

Why would you put a phone number that does not even as a sub option address the issue?

Re: Accountability Sinks

#264

Post by bgnn » Sat, May 03, 2025, 5:52 PM UTC

This reminded me of my favorite David Greaber book: The utopia of rules (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Utopia_of_Rules).

Greaber, if I remember right, argues that modern bureaucracy started with efficient means of communication. He squares the Deutsche Post as the milestone, as they made the whole population available to be controlled. Now the state could send them letters, count them, enlist them in the military etc.. It's a brilliant observation: communication technology is the main tool of the bureaucracy. The tangent he takes fron there is even more brilliant: we have been heavily focusing and improving the communication tech (telephone, fax, tv, radio, internet, social media) but not necessarily the tech to reduce thr burden of work for the masses (robots!). If you would ask someone 100 years ago how the future would look like, people would almost invariably say they would need to work less in the future, abd at some point they invariably expected to have robots do all the work. Yet, all we got is smartphones that watch every movement of us, makes us available to the employer anywhere and anytime, hence more means to control us by state or, exceedingly, private bureaucracies. There's a reason why AI boom is happening, as this is the next tech on the bureaucracy tree.

This being said, none of these tech are bad by themselves. It is the shape they took and the way they are used in contemporary society. To tie with the OP: we have communication tools available to us that is billions of times more efficient and effective yet the customer service, or any interaction with any big corporation (as a customer or employee) or state got so much worse and impersonal. Impersonal as in, individual cases do not exist anymore, only policies. One could have expected to escalate a claim back in late 19th century by just writing letters and eventually get to someone, or even just show up at the offices of a company and get their problem resolved (this is still the case in developing countries). Can we expect this now?

Re: Accountability Sinks

#265

Post by barrucadu » Sat, May 03, 2025, 5:59 PM UTC

scotty79 wrote: post #134

Thorrez wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meat costs a lot to produce. We eat it because it tastes good, not because it's convenient.

No. Dogs also taste good but they are way less convenient to raise per kilogram of meat then cows. That's one of the main reasons we rather eat cows, pigs and poultry than dogs, dolphins, squirrels or guinea pigs. People do a lot of expensive and wasteful things just because they are convenient in many domains of life. Meat isn't tasty. If it was you wouldn't always eat it fried almost to a char with salt and spices.…

> Meat isn't tasty. If it was you wouldn't always eat it fried almost to a char with salt and spices.

Allow me to introduce you to the concept of "steak".

Re: Accountability Sinks

#266

Post by hakfoo » Sat, May 03, 2025, 6:01 PM UTC

reneherse wrote: post #183

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to be a hallmark of Dick Wolf's shows. His son is getting into the act, but seems to be more interested in depicting "the right way." His show is an Amazon show, named On Call : https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14582876/ I enjoyed it.

I noticed the difference in this show as well, and I hope it continues. Besides any conscious philosophy of the producers & writers, perhaps making the show more character driven as opposed to procedural has an impact on the stories. Maybe it's easier to understand when a suspect's rights are being violated (and to not be banal about it) when you're writing a deeper portrayal of the person who wields the power.

I always wanted to see a "pop up video" take on a cop show, where they have expository information and trivia from actual legal experts.

"Officer Jones just blew the entire chain of custody around the bloody knife"

"Flabbodell vs Borkweather says they have to give you access to counsel within X hours and they just ran out the clock"

"This type of traffic stop is explicitly forbidden in 17 states, including the one this show is nominally set in"

Re: Accountability Sinks

#267

Post by Pamar » Sat, May 03, 2025, 6:02 PM UTC

nothrabannosir wrote: post #64

Pamar wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just an oversimplification though. If you had any experience about travel industry (or logistics) you would understand things much better. Here is an example for you (from logistics): Sending a truck from Berlin to - say - Györ may cost 3 times less than sending the same truck from Györ to Berlin - even on the same exact date. Is this because shipping companies try to make money out of nothing, for you?

A fair comparison would not be the return, but Berlin-Györ being more expensive than Vilnius-Berlin-Györ. Is that common in logistics, in your experience?

This was a fabricated example, actually: I work in tourism not in logistic (but I have friends in that field).

My point was that to the layman this does not make any sense while if you are managing a shipping company you soon realize that some destination are more profitable because your truck that was maybe taking specialized replacements parts from A to B can easily pick up some other stuff to send back to A, while travelling in the opposite direction your truck has a high chance to travel empty on retutning to base... but you still have to pay the drivers, the fuel, the maintenance and possibly tolls.

Re: Accountability Sinks

#268

Post by dividuum » Sat, May 03, 2025, 6:09 PM UTC

t_luke wrote: post #153

The conclusion of Davies' second extract — about e.g. being bumped off a flight — is recognisable but the conclusions are actually wrong. The situation in these cases is actually more subtle. The person you're speaking to does normally have some capacity to escalate in exceptional cases. But they can't do it as a matter of course, and have to maintain publicly that it's actually impossible. The people who get what th…

> [..] it incentivises people to behave as unpleasantly as possible — because it's often the only way to trigger the exception [..]

Thus creating an asshole filter: https://siderea.dreamwidth.org/1209794.html

Re: Accountability Sinks

#269

Post by hakfoo » Sat, May 03, 2025, 6:11 PM UTC

stackskipton wrote: post #222

werrett wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the ultimate nihilistic take on security. Yes, 'cyber' security has devolved to box checking and cargo culting in many orgs. But what's your counter on trying to fix the problems that every tech stack or new SaaS product comes without of the box? For most people when their Netflix (or HN) password gets leaked that means every email they've sent since 2004 is also exposed. It might also mean their 401k is siph…

Actual accountability. Do not let companies be like "Well, we were SOC2 compliant, this breach is not our fault despite not updating Apache Struts! Tee Hee" When Equifax got away with what was InfoSec murder by 6 months of jail time suspended, Executives stopped caring. This is political problem, not technology one. >So -- how do we get rid annoying checkboxes and ensure people do the right thing as a matter of cours…

It's a two-sided coin though.

We should be stopping leaks, but we also need to reduce the value of leaked data.

Identity theft doesn't get meaningfully prosecuted. Occasionally they'll go after some guy who runs a carding forum or someone who did a really splashy compromise, but the overall risk is low for most fraudulent players.

I always wanted a regulation that if you want to apply for credit, you have to show up in person and get photographed and fingerprinted. That way, the moment someone notices their SSN was misused, they have all the information on file to make a slam-dunk case against the culprit. It could be an easier deal for lazy cops than going after minor traffic infractions.

Re: Accountability Sinks

#270

Post by Pamar » Sat, May 03, 2025, 6:13 PM UTC

xingped wrote: post #63

Pamar wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just an oversimplification though. If you had any experience about travel industry (or logistics) you would understand things much better. Here is an example for you (from logistics): Sending a truck from Berlin to - say - Györ may cost 3 times less than sending the same truck from Györ to Berlin - even on the same exact date. Is this because shipping companies try to make money out of nothing, for you?

I think that's a misrepresentation though because A to B is not a subset of B to A. Whereas B to C is a subset of A to B to C.

If you are answering to my Berlin->Györ example:

Yes, it is not exactly the same thing but the point is: by getting off at B you are making the B->C flight travel with a wasted (empty) seat. Which they would have preferred to either sell to someone else or use for moving a pilot or technician to C.

(Note also that this trick of getting out mid-itinerary only works if you do not have checked baggage, because that will arrive in C, and neither the airline nor the airport will be happy to reroute it to wherever you thing you want to go next.

Flying is expensive and logistically complex. Just making sure you end up where your ticket say is complicated. If you (as a customer) decide to change your plans you are making everything more complicated (and possibly preventing other customers to pay for the whole itinerary).