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Don't force your kids to do math

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Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#261

Post by Garlef »

Jensson wrote: post #147
openplatypus wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The author clearly has very limited experience with raising kids. Most kids won't do difficult things if you don't push them. Such a bold claim coming from some who does not share their credentials on the matter. My kid will do everything as long as it is interesting. My sample of 1 contradicts your claim, but neither of us are experts on the matter.

> My kid will do everything as long as it is interesting Difficult things aren't interesting locally, you have to practice boring things in order to do interesting things in difficult subjects. Some kids do practice boring things if you just ask them, but most do not.

I think you're very very wrong.

Especially in maths, there's not much to practice.

There's stuff to understand. And while this might be exhausting it's not boring and it's a very rewarding process in itself.

Or programming... What's there to practice?

Really. I'd like an example of something that's boring.

My impression is that if you follow the path of discovery and applying things in context, there's nothing that's really boring.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#262

Post by tasuki »

hilbert42 wrote: post #212
tasuki wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the tragedies of being young is that few have the insight to realize that the 'boring' stuff parents and teachers are forcing us to learn will actually benefit us and that eventually we'll be very thankful that they did. I'm 40. I don't know, perhaps I'm still young. I did not appreciate having to learn the boring parts. Learning things for the next exam so as to forget them in two weeks... I didn't see the…

"…perhaps I'm still young." Possibly so, wisdom often take years to gel and often only after life events force its notions to the fore.

I had way more than usual share of "life events". I threw my career out the window to care for my toddler and dying partner. Then my partner died and I'm left alone raising the kid. What else is going to happen to make me wiser?

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#263

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 »

electriclove wrote: post #256
kif wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not a parent myself, but something I’ve seen happen with an American family I know, is that they push their kids way too much to learn and do as many things as possible. They have their music lessons, their many clubs at school, several physical activities such as soccer, tennis, taekwondo. At some point you have to stop and wonder whether you’re taking their childhood away. These kids barely have any free time.…

Definitely agree though the alternative can quickly become all day spent on TikTok or YouTube shorts.

This. I have several people with kids similar age as mine in my circle, who seemingly gave up and now its all phone, pad or tv at all times. It is very easy to lose that kid to other distractions unless you provide enough of a structure for them.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#264

Post by tetris11 »

ctxc wrote: post #235
tetris11 wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, 6 years of being forced to play the violin. Sure, once I was playing it, I was fine, but I cannot explain to you the sheer dread I felt opening up the case. Have not played in decades, despite all those lessons and concerts and orchestra sessions.

I felt the same. I didn't touch it for ~9 years. But I'm glad for it, since it lets me jam or enjoy myself without having to put the practice in now from scratch. I do it for fun.

I live in the hope that one day I will pick it up and feel nothing but contentment of being in the moment, but I'm just not ready for that yet.

Even the smell of tree resin sometimes makes my stomach tighten with anxiety.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#265

Post by pclmulqdq »

jasode wrote: post #250
r0fl wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Joy” is not found in a day. People enjoy doing things they are good at. It takes a long time to get good at some things and those days suck.

>“Joy” is not found in a day. People enjoy doing things they are good at. There's got to be more to it than your simplified breakdown. My first exposure to computer programming was fun and instantly addictive . There was no struggle to learn coding. Same childhood experience for guitar. Nobody was around to push me. There was no need for "discipline to practice". It was simply practice-was-natural-thing-to-do because…

I find tremendous joy in playing the piano today. That mostly started when I was about 20, ~15 years after I started playing the piano.

It had its moments during the first 15 years of my life, but it was more of a competitive activity than an entertaining one. Conservatively, every fun hour had about 50 shitty hours when I was a serious piano student. Now it's 100% fun.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#266

Post by bethekidyouwant »

Loic wrote: post #181
rerdavies wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The really important thing is to teach kids to find their joy. At the end of my second year of piano lessons, my teacher took me into her living room, and we listened to Glen Miller records for most of the hour. And then we had a cup of tea, and she told me, "this is the music that I love. I play piano because I love that music, and I want to be able to play it myself. What kind of music do you like?" I didn't really…

But kids are going to have setbacks, they will reach a plateau in their craft (music, painting, art, sport, ...). You need also as a good parent to help your kids go through, to not give up, because even joy to do is not always enough. This is the hard part. From my modest experience of being a ski/snowboard instructor and trying to raise 3 boys (now 12, 16 and 18).

why does a child need to break through a plateau at anything? Of my five sample size of five, expose them and support them, some things can’t even hook you until your brain grows enough .. The musical one is in a band now the nerdy one likes inhaling solder. I did force both boys to Hockey but just to have passable skills so that he can enjoy that all that comes with the sport as an adult

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#267

Post by 1970-01-01 »

Humans are more terrible at teaching math than any other concept. I remember being taught algebra by a teacher that had terrible idiosyncrasies. She would sometimes write numbers and variables differently, and this caused major problems trying to understand how and why the variable was to be written differently due to new context. But she would just go on writing it differently, just because she was weird. For example, she would sometimes write 'x' using two curves that didn't touch ')(' and expected you to continue with the algebra equation as if nothing was strange. My point is that teachers still don't understand how to correctly teach math to students. They reinforce using their old methods that are overall sloppy shorthand in a space where rigor, both visually and conceptually, must be maintained. When young minds are this fresh, you cannot have this slop and idiosyncrasy in your lessons and expect students to become enlightened. So no, forcing them to do some math is not harmful. Poor teaching in a very hard space definitely is harmful.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#268

Post by uwagar »

5- wrote: post #84
uwagar wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

back when we was new in programming it was similarly difficult to grok X = X + 1 once we got it, it was a like new world!

most likely this very unfortunate misnomer started with fortran, where it was deemed lucrative to point out "how much programs look like mathematic formulas!". not only is this overloading a symbol (equality) with a completely different meaning (assignment), it is also a poor choice typographically, as it represents a directional operation with a directionless symbol. using an arrow for assignment is much better. it'…

arrow for assignment is cool, but the backspace key is the only closest arrow-like key on the keyboard but it has a different purpose. plus the arrow key should be laid out such that u dont have to press a SHIFT/CTRL/ALT to produce it.

for this reason, i felt C a breath of fresh air cos u could just assign using = instead of what we was doing in pascal which was the horrible := where u had to press SHIFT for the :

things like this matter.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#269

Post by CivBase »

t0bia_s wrote: post #172
laurent_du wrote: post #102

Very poor take. The author clearly has very limited experience with raising kids. Most kids won't do difficult things if you don't push them. Playing music, learning to spell correctly, doing mathematics, and so on. A very small minority of kids will do all of that easily and for the fun, but you can't rely on it. If you don't push your kid to do their 20 minutes of piano every day, they will half-ass it and will sto…

Do you do things because someone force you or beacuse you have self motivation?

I spend at least 40 hr a week doing something I have no motivation for. Most people do. Even if you don't hate your job, would you actually do it if you weren't getting paid?

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#270

Post by alphazard »

laurent_du wrote: post #102

Very poor take. The author clearly has very limited experience with raising kids. Most kids won't do difficult things if you don't push them. Playing music, learning to spell correctly, doing mathematics, and so on. A very small minority of kids will do all of that easily and for the fun, but you can't rely on it. If you don't push your kid to do their 20 minutes of piano every day, they will half-ass it and will sto…

This kind of forced practice can create the appearance of a certain level of competence, but it rarely produces a deep understanding or innate appreciation of any of those subjects.

Take music, for example. Many high schoolers play an instrument as part of the college admissions game. Almost none of those kids can play music with their friends and just enjoy it. To them music is this structured activity where they get paper with dots on it, and they have to play the right notes at the right time to pass the class. These kids never develop a true understanding or appreciation for music. They don't keep their instruments or practice as adults.

There's so many things to learn to be good at, why not find something that you actually like?

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