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IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

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261–270 of 504 posts

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#261
post #178

The anit-DEI stuff is predicated on an idea that there is a clear known 'best fit' for a position and it shouldn't take into account X, whatever X is. The problem is always this, nobody actually knows what a best fit really is. Nature shows us that one trait leads to longer term survival, diversity. When you think you know the traits that pick most suitable and exclude other traits then you are getting rid of the cha…

The "anit-DEI stuff" is the same as the DEI stuff from before this administration: performative. Originally DEI was because the people demanded it of companies, now the anti-DEI version is because the administration will make your life hell if you don't fall in line. Personally I fully agree that building a diverse workforce is more profitable in the long run than ignoring diversity (unless your company will die in t…

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Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#262
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DEI is just giving other people the chance to setup the opportunity pipeline that already exists for white people in a white dominated society. It isn't a law. It's just looking at history and going, "They'd probably be as successful if there was a pipeline for those folks to get there, since that pipeline doesn't exist we need to represent them to allow the pipeline to be built." You also don't seem to fully know wh…

> the opportunity pipeline that already exists for white people There is no opportunity pipeline for white people. There is an opportunity pipeline for a small number of well connected, wealthy people who can get their kids into elite prep schools starting from kindergarten. It's not open to working class white people. Edit: that doesn't mean no working class white person can succeed. Just that the prep school, elite…

What would an opportunity pipeline for white people look like? How would we detect one if it were to exist?

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#263
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Merit seems to be highly subjective given that the people in current US administration are all hired based on merit.

I'd just say that I find it very frustrating that the argument for "one side" is how insane "the other side" is, because then that pretends that reasonable solutions (and not what I would call "compromises") don't exist, because you're only looking at the extremes. Yes, I think it's nuts to replace "DEI hires" with DUI hires and pretend that is "merit based", and I think the US has become a pretty full-blown kakistoc…

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Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#264
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's my whole point: rich people have access to better materials. This is simply a fact. "Rich people have more money" isn't an interesting fact, it's just the definition of rich people. > How about introducing DEI programs that help these disadvantaged people access the same materials? The term "DEI" has been applied to disparate impact rules and other policies that amount to race quotas and correspondingly garn…

> "Rich people have more money" isn't an interesting fact, it's just the definition of rich people. That's not what I said. This is bordering on bad faith, please don't do that. > The term "DEI" has been applied to disparate impact rules and other policies that amount to race quotas and correspondingly garner strong opposition. If you want to advance good policies, you should stop using the same term to apply to them…

> That's not what I said. This is bordering on bad faith, please don't do that.

The premise of a meritocracy isn't that everyone is the same, it's that everyone is subject to the same standard. The alternatives are things like racism or nepotism where someone gets the position even if they're not expected to do a better job, because of their race or because their father owns the company.

But merit isn't a fixed property. If you spend your time studying physics, you'll make yourself qualified to do certain types of engineering when spending that time playing football wouldn't.

Money, then, can be used to improve merit. You can e.g. pay for tuition at a better school that someone else couldn't afford. If that school actually imparts higher quality skills than a less expensive school (or no school), a meritocratic hiring practice will favor the graduates of that school, because they're actually better at doing the job.

You can then argue that this isn't fair because rich people can afford better schools etc., but a) that will always be the case because the ability to use money to improve yourself will always exist, and b) if you would like to lessen its effect, the correct solution is not to abandon meritocracy in hiring decisions, it's to increase opportunities for the poor to achieve school admissions consistent with their innate ability etc.

> First, what term would you have me use instead? Second, I don't believe it matters what term I choose, because it will get demonized just like DEI did.

The demonization comes from rooting the concern in race rather than economic opportunity, because the people obsessed with race are interested in dividing the poor and pitting them against each other in tribal warfare, and then any term you use for that will be demonized because it will become infected with tribal signaling associations.

> There is still a large gap between "high-quality individualized private tutoring" and "poor kids should walk large distances to public libraries, have access to worse materials and have no tutoring available".

And then we're back to, what is even the dispute? You can't close the entire gap because part of the gap is a result of things that are infeasibly expensive at scale and no one disputes that. There are cost effective and reasonable policies that could close some of the gap, but many of those have already been implemented or could be adopted with minimal opposition if they were simply proposed in the places not already doing them, because they're cost effective and reasonable. It's literally only a matter of going to your town council meeting and convincing them that it's a good idea.

People don't strongly oppose libraries that stock study books. They oppose race quotas.

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#265

I am curious if anyone can find the text for "IBM's Policy Letter #4" written by IBM's chairman in 1953, which is referenced in this article. I did some searching but all the links I found to the full text were broken. I ask because I think it shows what a Rorschach test the arguments over DEI have become. I at least found one quote from the Policy Letter #4 which stated "It is the policy of this organization to hire…

Just because you don't like people or tribe supporting a policy or their motives supporting such policies doesn't make a policy good or bad or valid or invalid. During COVID times, some statements or policies that turned out to be true were overly supported by some b wacky and or political undesirable people. Reacting to this, many decisions or policies stayed in place or were undertaken.

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In theory, perhaps, but in practice nothing is being done to help boys. Untrue. There’s a ton of work being done on how to better support boys in school. > In fact, DEI programs in universities continue to favor young women even as they approach 60% of students. What are these DEI programs favoring university admission for young women?

Here's the opinion of the Society for Women Engineers: > Cutting these [DEI] programs means fewer resources for students that need support. It’s devastating for women https://swe.org/magazine/dei-faces-rising-waters/ That's an admission that DEI in schools supports women, from some of its biggest advocates. Where are the programs to support boys in school? Edit: Of course, the mere existence of the Society for Women…

That's an admission that a group focused on women is concerned with the impacts of issues on women.

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#267
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like DEI and am willing to engage. The US has a huge disparity of outcomes along racial lines. This is a legacy of slavery as well as social and governmental discrimination following slavery. [Racial biases persist today, but are much better today than the past, and we should focus on elimination of those biases, not adding new ones.] These factors result in real disparity in capabilities and merit today. Thi…

DEI is not a law. I get how this misunderstanding is possible given how wildly the term gets thrown about by conservatives, like it is a boogieman that is the source of everyone's problems. Anyway, everyone is already ostensibly equal under the law, but, like you've recognized, we've still found our way into a system of racism (that goes beyond governmental discrimination). Logically, to recognize systemic racism, th…

With respect to education, I'm not attached to SAT scores. Pick any non racial metric of merit, and I'm OK with it. Income is fine, not a protected clause. Random is fine too. Just don't promote or penalize people based on race.

With respect to jobs, if you agree the most qualified person should get it, we are similarly aligned.

If you agree with all that, we are good, not matter what it is called.

I just call it non discrimination.

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#268
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Because racism is ongoing and negatively impacts people of color, it makes sense to focus where harm is being done. My point is that there are plenty of -isms going around and focusing on race alone completely ignores the fact that our lives are impacted in different ways. When we take a flat reductionist view, as if Sasha and Malia Obama face the same challenges as some randomly chosen person of the same race, we h…

> My point is that there are plenty of -isms going around and focusing on race alone completely ignores the fact that our lives are impacted in different ways. No it doesn’t. We have other means of support for people whose lives are impacted by e.g. poverty. > When we have a flat reductionist as our view, as if Sasha and Malia Obama face the same challenges as some randomly chosen person of the same race, we have the…

>There are already significant class divides in the community. Our system specifically encourages that sort of thing. The idea that a few high performers get the same benefits (ones that aren’t already means tested) as the poorest is irrelevant in the scheme of things.

I think this is where we might disagree most. I see racism as a form of stupidity, that is, a general induction error given perception bias, where you generalize the examples of a small sample size to a group and draw a wrong conclusion... based on race. Here, due to the history of discrimination, we have significant class difference that lead to more racism, which is class differences but projected as a race difference. I'd note here, we don't have the same kind of deliberate class as a place like the UK does, but we do have class and it's class beyond just an economic class.

I'll obviously admit that that's certainly not an explanation for all current racism, but I think a significant amount of our concern may be here. In this case, I worry that using race as a proxy for existing class differences in racially different communities will be incorrectly addressed in DEI programs based on race. You can already see the awkwardness of this in Asian and Indian communities, as they are racial minorities, yet they are often seen as overrepresented in outcomes. A traditional "racism is just racism" view really doesn't explain this mismatch, but a race-as-a-proxy-for-class easily does.

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the opportunity pipeline that already exists for white people There is no opportunity pipeline for white people. There is an opportunity pipeline for a small number of well connected, wealthy people who can get their kids into elite prep schools starting from kindergarten. It's not open to working class white people. Edit: that doesn't mean no working class white person can succeed. Just that the prep school, elite…

What would an opportunity pipeline for white people look like? How would we detect one if it were to exist?

Why ask me? It was chneu who claimed it existed.

Edit: Yes, I made a bold assertion, based on the view from the working class and the many intelligent white people I know who were held back by not being wealthy or well-connected. For those outside the elite pipeline, it's an advantage not to be white.

If there's a pipeline I don't know about, I'd like to hear it. Point it out so more people can join the pipeline to success!

Re: IBM orders US sales to locate near customers, RTO for cloud staff, DEI purge

#270
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Veering off topic, but this letter is in a variable width font. Were there typewriters that could do that? Yes, and in fact one of the most popular was from IBM itself [1], released in 1944. > The letterhead and body text aren’t aligned, so if it did go through a press it took two passes. It was pretty standard practice to have pre-printed letterhead, hence the cachet of something being issued on "company letterhea…

Of course it was typed by a secretary. At a computer company I worked at starting in the mid 1980s it was not unheard of for some execs to have their admins print out emails for them and type in the handwritten responses. This was an internal-only system. No external email.

Being a touch typist was seen as kind of blue collar until everyone could afford personal computers at home..
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