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Tailscale has raised $160M

tailscale.com

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Re: Tailscale has raised $160M

#261

Post by littlecranky67 »

dijit wrote: post #255
littlecranky67 wrote: post #246

Still can't wrap my head around that TS does not allow to signup with your custom email/password combination but forces you to use bigtech (GitHub, Apple, Meta etc.) to login. Running your custom OIDC provider as a small, private person does not make any sense either.

I think that's quite smart, and OIDC is an open standard at least. Securing usernames/passwords and handling second factors etc; is already done so well and it's hard to do. Having a clear 'this is where we can be secure' stances is what makes me want to trust them more.

> and OIDC is an open standard at least

But what kind of argument is that, if you are a single individual who wants to signup, I am not going to setup my OIDC servers. That is like saying it is a good idea to run a dedicated linux server in a datacenter under your own management, when all you want is a small static website for your mom+pop store. Sure, you can run your own server and it is all open source, but just overkill.

> already done so well and it's hard to do.

So hard that literally all other websites in the world with a login have implemented it. And tailscale is a VPN-like technology company - if they can't manage to implement a login because it is hard, then I would definitely not accept their offerings.

Re: Tailscale has raised $160M

#263

Post by asim »

Congrats to the tailscale guys. I remember when tailscale was not a networking company. Amazing to see where it's ended up and obviously having bradfitz onboard is useful too. I'm always curious to know what the internals of a company looks like with a lot of ex-googlers running it. Does it look like a mini Google or something else? Not sure if apenwarr is here but always interested to learn more.

Re: Tailscale has raised $160M

#264

Post by fidotron »

briHass wrote: post #192

I'm a fan of TS and have been a paying customer for work infra for almost a year now. It really is well put together and easy to use, but I do run up against some issues/complaints when diving deep that I hope they can work out: * The pricing tiers and included features by tier penalizes you in frustrating ways. The base plan is a reasonable $6/user/m, but if you want to use ACLs to control anything in a workable way…

> Overall, the simplicity and abstraction of complex VPN networking is wonderful, but if you have issues or advanced needs, you are immediately thrust into the low-level UDP/NAT/STUN world you were trying to avoid.

This is my experience too.

I actually came to believe the TS dream of device based VPN as opposed to AP or router based is the wrong thing because it gets confused by subnets and subnet routing so often, but also that the big security problem on networks is bad devices which it's not going to help you with unless you can wrap them up anyway.

That's one of the reasons I started playing with AP to AP real time video like https://github.com/atomirex/umbrella which is a nightmare case from the TS pov. The intention is to eventually wrap clients up on separate networks so they can only see each other via the (locally run) relay.

Re: Tailscale has raised $160M

#265

Post by regisso »

braginini wrote: post #3
elAhmo wrote: post #2

When I saw the new round, I was instantly worried about change in direction that will most likely come with this, and effectively drive away regular users from a tool that seems universally loved. Similar sentiment can be seen in the discussion from three years ago [1] when they raised $100M. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31259950

Try netbird which is an open-source alternative to free yourself from worries xD https://github.com/netbirdio/netbird

I highly recommend netbird, after using it for two years. The whole stack can be self hosted is open source develop by an european based company.

Re: Tailscale has raised $160M

#266

Post by TorKlingberg »

atomicnumber3 wrote: post #219
briHass wrote: post #192

I'm a fan of TS and have been a paying customer for work infra for almost a year now. It really is well put together and easy to use, but I do run up against some issues/complaints when diving deep that I hope they can work out: * The pricing tiers and included features by tier penalizes you in frustrating ways. The base plan is a reasonable $6/user/m, but if you want to use ACLs to control anything in a workable way…

>$6/user/m, but if you want to use ACLs to control anything in a workable way, it jumps 3x to $18/u/m. It's market segmentation, needing ACLs is a sign you're at least an SMB, and to a business of nearly any actual size, the difference between $6/user and $18/user is 0.

> difference between $6/user and $18/user is 0

I wouldn't go that far. Big companies put a lot of effort into saving $12/seat.

But, if you can convince them they get >$18 of value from it they're usually happy to pay. With hobbyists it's more emotional. $6 is "just a coffee" and can be justified just to try it out. At $18/m is one of your household bills, and many will decide they enjoy watching Netflix more than messing around with Tailscale.

Re: Tailscale has raised $160M

#267

Post by alexjurkiewicz »

cbzbc wrote: post #258
rjgray wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you mind sharing the better solutions you'd consider at the higher price point?

zerotier maybe?

There's nothing about ZeroTier's solution which deserves a higher price point than Tailscale. As a long-time user, ZT's administration UI is much worse and the product has been essentially unchanged for a decade.

Better solutions would be things that make the VPN invisible, rather than 'easy'. Tools such as Teleport, IOW.

Re: Tailscale has raised $160M

#268

Post by PLG88 »

briHass wrote: post #192

I'm a fan of TS and have been a paying customer for work infra for almost a year now. It really is well put together and easy to use, but I do run up against some issues/complaints when diving deep that I hope they can work out: * The pricing tiers and included features by tier penalizes you in frustrating ways. The base plan is a reasonable $6/user/m, but if you want to use ACLs to control anything in a workable way…

Agreed. This is why imho Tailscale does not scale very well. Awesome for home labs and small orgs as a VPN replacement, but not enterprise scale with abstrations that actually remove complexity. I wrote about it in this blog - https://netfoundry.io/vpns/tailscale-and-wireguard-versus-ne...

Re: Tailscale has raised $160M

#269

Post by lmeyerov »

wkat4242 wrote: post #234
atomicnumber3 wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>$6/user/m, but if you want to use ACLs to control anything in a workable way, it jumps 3x to $18/u/m. It's market segmentation, needing ACLs is a sign you're at least an SMB, and to a business of nearly any actual size, the difference between $6/user and $18/user is 0.

Uh I work for an enterprise of tens of thousands of users and $18 a month is not nothing for us. In fact considering the discounts we get at our size that would be so high we'd never consider it. We don't even use windows enterprise for the same reason, we have legacy office 365 plans and lifetime windows licenses without the M365 addons because it saves is a few bucks per head. At our size, a few bucks a head quickl…

Enterprise math is interesting --

For a global all-you-can-eat enterprise-wide rollout:

* base: 20K users x $200/yr

* 50% discount: volume + multi-year + ...

=> enterprise: $1M/yr

=> 200 person division in the enterprise: $10K/yr

It's not cheap, but averaging out a global rollout, not terrible afaict

(This is super rough. Ex: Add in BYO hardware, internal staffing, pro serv, and who knows the real discounting!)

Re: Tailscale has raised $160M

#270

Post by BiteCode_dev »

sidcool wrote: post #233
wg0 wrote: post #231

Start looking for alternatives already. Nothing good came out of VC rounds and private equity for the end consumers ever.

I understand the cynicism. But this is counter productive. Any venture has to have a finance angle. They are not missionaries.

Steam does fine financially and without having to answer investors, which is why it's been able to stay mostly good to its user base for so long.

This is not an "xor" statement.

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