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Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

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Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#261

Post by timewizard »

ta1243 wrote: post #109
timewizard wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might have tried just closing and locking the doors first.

Yes because Trump's lot are too stupid to break down windows and doors https://edition.cnn.com/videos/politics/2021/01/06/jim-himes...

You really believe the security of those windows in the Capitol comes down to the glass? That you're even willing to accept this proposition says something.

Anyways, to my point, clearly observable in that picture are security shutters, on the sides of the window, left open and unlocked. I might have closed and locked those.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#262

Post by CaffeineLD50 »

perching_aix wrote: post #97
CaffeineLD50 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what do you think they were implying ? A world of fairies and unicorns where protests are tolerated and bad guys just retire to Dubai ?

Yes, just without the fairies and the unicorns (or the Dubai travel destination). Or even the retiring.

Yes I want fantasy unicorns too.

Until then let's APPLAUD people not being killed in a protest, m'kay?

Non lethal force is a good alternative, even when used for evil purposes.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#263

Post by D_Alex »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #137
sa46 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Geneva Convention bans all chemical weapons. Part of the rationale for a total ban is to avoid escalating to more dangerous chemical agents. Helpful r/AskHistorians thread: https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/gwtj89/the_c...

> Part of the rationale for a total ban is to avoid escalating to more dangerous chemical agents Chemical weapons are tactically useless for modern militaries [1]. You’re pretty much always better off pounding with high explosives. And there isn’t a known path to escalation potential. If there were, everyone would be developing it. [1] https://acoup.blog/2020/03/20/collections-why-dont-we-use-ch...

>Chemical weapons are tactically useless for modern militaries

The defense of Azovstal steelworks and Gaza tunnels seems to show otherwise.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#264

Post by _heimdall »

gruez wrote: post #256
lurk2 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As explained in the military manual of the Netherlands, the prohibition of the use of riot control agents as a method of warfare is inspired by the fact that use of tear gas, for example, in armed conflict “runs the danger of provoking the use of other more dangerous chemicals”. A party which is being attacked by riot control agents may think it is being attacked by deadly chemical weapons and resort to the use of…

>This motivation is equally valid in international and non-international armed conflicts. Okay but clearly protesters aren't going to escalate to mustard gas just because police used tear gas?

I think the argument here is that its okay to use against a crowd because the risk of escalation is very low.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#265

Post by Cyph0n »

mmooss wrote: post #116
impossiblefork wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once there's violence targeting you, the solution is to bring real weapons and resolve it using ordinary military tactics, that is, you kill the operator.

That sounds bold and exciting, but it's clearly false and terrible advice. Violence, like warfare, is politics by other means. Every expert knows that law of warfare - the first law of warfare, in a sense - that it ends when and only when there is political agreement. Even in warfare, violence just buys time and changes your political position. In countries with rule-of-law, you can use the political / legal system t…

Read some Fanon, then come back and review your comment.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#266

Post by mightyham »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #56
camilo2025 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are aware that these LRAD systems have been used against US citizens, aren't you?

Police also regularly use tear gas against US citizens. These are weapons that would violate the Geneva convention, but we're okay with them to disperse a crowd.

It is an obvious fallacy to conflate the usage of tear gas canisters with the usage of mustard gas in WWI. They differ drastically in amount/concentration, area of effect, and long term health risks, thus should be treated differently in considering their usage.

Tear gas clearly sits on a spectrum of non-lethal arms with various other options that are more or less harmful. While it's entirely fair to criticize its use on a case by case basis, insofar as disorderly public gatherings can have varying levels of violence/destruction, it would stand to reason that some instances warrant the use of tear gas.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#267

Post by int_19h »

EA-3167 wrote: post #142
tbrownaw wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These are weapons that would violate the Geneva convention, but we're okay with them to disperse a crowd. Isn't that a category ban that came out of a couple specific members of that category that were used and had particularly nasty effects? And then countries' domestic law enforcement rules tend to be defined in different terms.

It is. People think that the "Frangible bullets and teargas banned by the Genevan Conventions" means that they're seen as too cruel to use in war. Unfortunately the "wisdom of crowds" that we've created on social media has decided that it does. The reality is that we're talking about the views of people in 1925, as informed by a previous group of people in the late 1800's. They were far more concerned with avoiding t…

Except they are used today. Russian 5.45 is famously highly prone to tumbling due to its design with bubble of air in the front of the bullet (even more so than rifle rounds in general). If we look at American 5.56mm, the original M193 was prone to fragmenting, which the original study reports on what would eventually become M16 noted as the reason why it's capable of creating more devastating wounds then the then-standard M80 ball. And modern M855A1 fragments even more reliably (at lower velocities) while still punching through armor.

Pretty much any OTM round is effectively expanding and/or fragmenting (depending on velocity) as well...

So for all practical purposes this convention hasn't been followed for literally decades now. The pretense is that we claim that all these bullet designs just happen to do what they do. Although IIRC the US military authorized use of 9mm JHP in some circumstances, as well, so I think even that veneer is mostly gone by now.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#268

Post by int_19h »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #141
__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you were at a protest that was starting to get a bit rowdy and somebody used one of these on you, what would you do? I'd either come back prepared for actual violence, or switch from protest to sabotage. It just screams "escalation" to me.

> If you were at a protest that was starting to get a bit rowdy and somebody used one of these on you, what would you do? Leave. The moment it turns into a riot you’re doing damage to your cause. (If you’re in a protest and see hooligans, restrain them.)

Ukrainians didn't leave, and they ended up taking their country back. Twice.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#269

Post by int_19h »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #204
__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's good advice, but I mean what do you do when you get home? Now that your right to assemble has been effectively revoked, what's your next step?

Plan a legal assembly, an economic protest, and write your legislator. Right to assemble is not a blank check for violent action, or even to assemble wherever and whenever your want.

The reason why these are legal is precisely because they are so ineffective.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#270

Post by int_19h »

kortilla wrote: post #203
mrob wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Are chemical irritants preferable Absolutely. You can heal from those. LRADs are maiming weapons designed to cause permanent damage. Under any reasonable legal system their use would be considered a war crime.

LRADs are not designed to cause permanent damage. They are explicitly designed under the intention of being a way to disperse a crowd without long term harm. There hasn’t been much research on long term health impacts, but it’s not a tool to maim people. https://phr.org/our-work/resources/health-impacts-of-crowd-c...

160 dB way over hearing safe. Most rifle rounds are in >140 dB territory, and that is quite sufficient to give you permanent hearing damage.
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