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HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

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Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#261

Post by eptcyka »

hu3 wrote: post #252
nolist_policy wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say that .NET is the best example that Microsoft has not changed: https://isdotnetopen.com/

These are handful of handpicked twitter posts that are almost 3 years old, including the page itself. https://github.com/ghuntley/isdotnetopen The website doesn't even explain what they mean by open. Nor they explain why they think .NET is not open source.

Isn't `vsdbg` still distributed with an incredibly restrictive license? Doesn't sound all too open to me.

Further, the twitter posts themselves are still relevant I believe. If someone took over my repo, I'd remember it 3 years later.

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#262

Post by sublimefire »

fragmede wrote: post #165
motorest wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A "few extra ms" is up to 3 roundtrips difference, that's easily noticeable by humans on cellular. That's a valid concern. That's the baseline already though, so everyone is already living with that without much in the way of a concern. It's a nice-to-have. The problem OP presents is what are the tradeoffs for that nice-to-have. Is security holes an acceptable tradeoff?

Most people still use Google, and so they're living the fast HTTP 3 life, switching off that to a slower protocol only when interacting with non-Google/Amazon/MSFT properties. If your product is a competitor, but slower/inaccessible users are going to bounce off your product and not even be able to tell you why.

Nonsense, most of the web is non Google, Amazon or MSFT. Much of the web apps already uses CDNs which will enable web3 and the browser will support it. Other parts like APIs will not benefit much it they hit the database/auth/etc. MSFT stuff is dead slow anyway, Amazon is out of date, Google is just ads (who uses their search anymore?)

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#263

Post by Karrot_Kream »

aoeusnth1 wrote: post #215
djha-skin wrote: post #209

> Really it's hard to point to any popular open-source tools that fully support HTTP/3: rollout has barely even started. > This seems contradictory. What's going on? IT administrators and DevOps engineers such as myself typically terminate HTTP/3 connections at the load balancer, terminate SSL, then pass back HTTP 1.1 (_maybe_ 2 if the service is GRPC or GraphQL) to the backing service. This is way easier to administ…

What kind of overhead? I’m curious if there’s data about this because I hadn’t heard that 1.1 was better for the data center.

QUIC/HTTP3 relies on TLS. If you already have some encrypted transport, like an Istio/Envoy service mesh with mutual TLS, or Zerotier/Tailscale/Wireguard style encrypted overlay network, then there are no benefits to using HTTP3. Moreover native crypto libraries tend do a better job handling encryption anyway so rather than wasting cycles doing crypto in Go or Node it makes more sense to let the service mesh or the overlay handle encryption and let your app just respond to clear requests.

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#264

Post by billywhizz »

sureIy wrote: post #179
jauntywundrkind wrote: post #141

There's some cool stuff & capabilities here. Its surprising to me that uptake has been so slow. Node.js just posted an update on the state of QUIC, which underlies http3 & has had some work over the years. They're struggling with openssl being slow to get adequate API support going. There's efforts that have working books for quic, but the prospect of switching is somewhat onerous. Really unfortunate; so much of this…

I'd love to see that OpenSSL fork drama on the main page of HN. Do you know where this was discussed?

there's a pretty good summary of things with links from daniel stenberg - the curl guy - here : https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2021/10/25/the-quic-api-openssl-...

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#265

Post by eptcyka »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #224
eptcyka wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that will change, as more and more clients will rely on UDP on port 443.

It's also a poor congestion control practice to begin with. The main categories of UDP traffic are DNS, VoIP and VPNs. DNS is extremely latency sensitive -- the entirety of what happens next is waiting for the response -- so dropping DNS packets is a great way to make everything suck more than necessary. VoIP often uses some error correction and can tolerate some level of packet loss, but it's still a realtime protoc…

Allegedly, some traffic is best split into multiple socket addresses to work around the smart middleboxes.

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#266

Post by neonsunset »

int_19h wrote: post #256
neonsunset wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I edited it because it's not just my own experience of dealing with this. On twitter, I follow a couple Japanese developers from mainly gamedev scene and even they complain they started hearing more about "but it only works on windows" and "it's not open-source". Don't you find it strange that it should be the other way around the more years pass since .NET went OSS? The link itself is also quite outdated and mainly…

You forgot to mention that Miguel de Icaza was probably the single biggest .NET fanboy for literally decades before throwing in the towel. The fact that a person like this ended up being alienated tells volumes. I should also add that the general public only saw the tip of the iceberg in this entire episode. Miguel spent a lot of time and effort internally trying to right the .NET ship, gradually escalating through m…

I don’t doubt this but the criticism has to be rooted in facts and the current state of affairs, and you have to consider conflict of interest. It’s not too different to what you can read here. No one ever talks about whether C# offers good cohesive experience when solving a specific task, or what are the pros and cons of its build system, or how a typical .NET team looks like in a particular region. No.

Instead, the complaints you will read here are about what the authors think .NET’s problems are without ever verifying if any of that is true in hopes of making swipes for god knows what reason, because posting something accurate requires knowledge on the subject and the results of a cursory search usually do not support cheap arguments.

(and I see this as an embarrassment because you can learn a lot from doing research instead of repeating the same tired phrases you heard elsewhere)

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#267

Post by Zambyte »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #109
shermantanktop wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

.NET suffers from the long lasting reputational taint of Microsoft. It was seen as the sworn enemy of open source and Linux, and for good reason. Today’s MS is not what it was back then. But long memories are not a bad thing, really. If .NET suffers a bit from some unfair perception, perhaps that can remind MS and others what happens when you take an aggressively adversarial approach.

The ironic thing? GitHub, VS Code, and TypeScript are all Microsoft products.

Why is that ironic? Only one of those are Free Software

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#268

Post by fragmede »

sublimefire wrote: post #262
fragmede wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people still use Google, and so they're living the fast HTTP 3 life, switching off that to a slower protocol only when interacting with non-Google/Amazon/MSFT properties. If your product is a competitor, but slower/inaccessible users are going to bounce off your product and not even be able to tell you why.

Nonsense, most of the web is non Google, Amazon or MSFT. Much of the web apps already uses CDNs which will enable web3 and the browser will support it. Other parts like APIs will not benefit much it they hit the database/auth/etc. MSFT stuff is dead slow anyway, Amazon is out of date, Google is just ads (who uses their search anymore?)

> most of the web is non Google, Amazon or MSFT.

maybe you can point out where that's what I said

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#269

Post by ZeWaka »

foobarchu wrote: post #255
strongpigeon wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VS code is mostly in house too. Sure, they don’t own Electron, but I was at MSFT when project Monaco (which became the basis for VS Code) was started and remember being very impressed by it back then

Text editors and IDEs come and go, there is very little commitment to using one. If you write a project in C#, you've committed to it and it's ecosystem. Getting out of there when MS makes a choice you don't agree with is going to be near impossible.

Eh, these days there's a lot of investment in the VSCode extension ecosystem.

Re: HTTP/3 is everywhere but nowhere

#270

Post by jallmann »

urban_alien wrote: post #226
djha-skin wrote: post #209

> Really it's hard to point to any popular open-source tools that fully support HTTP/3: rollout has barely even started. > This seems contradictory. What's going on? IT administrators and DevOps engineers such as myself typically terminate HTTP/3 connections at the load balancer, terminate SSL, then pass back HTTP 1.1 (_maybe_ 2 if the service is GRPC or GraphQL) to the backing service. This is way easier to administ…

Ok, HTTP/3 is mobile centric. But why not fallback to HTTP/2 in all other cases?

http/1 traffic is a lot easier to inspect
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