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Should managers still code?

theengineeringmanager.substack.com

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Re: Should managers still code?

#261

Post by benrutter »

cutemonster wrote: post #256
howthewut wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of jobs where the bosses bosses boss does know the job as that’s where they started. Your post has an authoritative tone but is too reductive and dismisses the real world often working in a completely opposite way, so I’m not sure it’s a credible argument.

> jobs where the bosses bosses boss does know the job Doesn't make sense. With 7 - 10 reports per manager, that means the higher up boss or CEO should know how to do the jobs of 350 - 1000 different people. (7*7*7)

Hypothetically, those jobs could all be very similar if your company did more or less one thing lots, like managing a whole bunch of plumbing contractor teams.

This is pretty far from the original example though.

Re: Should managers still code?

#262

Post by justanotherjoe »

matwood wrote: post #252
protocolture wrote: post #160

I cant work for someone who doesn't understand what I do. An unused sword rusts in its sheathe. I remember working for a gent years ago, who was stressed out that my output was so low. He declared "I started this business in my living room let me show you I can do any job in this building" He came to my workspace, where I had 20 servers stacked on my workbench. He looked at them. Attached a single power cord. And the…

> I cant work for someone who doesn't understand what I do. A better word might to 'appreciate' what you do. I'm mostly a manager/leader/vision person now and occasionally still code. Even though I've written a lot of code over the years, there's no way I could just drop in on a complicated project and understand all the intricacies without some ramp up right now. And that's ok. I appreciate the challenges everyone (…

'Appreciating' is a very hard thing to do. I think it's an impossible task for one man. Not only do you oversee many people, but there are so many dimensions you can appreciate in someone.

The way I see it is that for a healthy office, you need to have peers who appreciate each other in a vocal way so that the managers/leads can hear it. Cause not everyone sees what you see. You notice someone is really good with something? See someone keeping up with the literature? Find a way to bring it up in group setting. It's not a given that everyone notices what you notice.

The thing about appreciation is that you can't just say it about yourselves. It always need someone else. You cannot say things about yourself other than your outputs cause it'd only look petty. Only when someone else says it, it's considered. Of course, be proper with it.

All I'm saying is appreciation is a shared responsibility. And if you do it right you might also become someone's favorite person.

Re: Should managers still code?

#264

Post by pjerem »

kamaal wrote: post #225
zemvpferreira wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know man. Can Bezos code? Can he operate a forklift? Would he still even recognize Powerpoint if you opened it for him? At certain points things need to be let go of if you want to keep growing. Some managers might keep technical skills sharp, but I’m not sure they’re much better managers for it.

>>I don’t know man. Can Bezos code? Can he operate a forklift? Most top level legendary CEOs, could. Zuckerberg, Gates, Jack Welch, Edison, Larry Page, Sergey Brin all worked their way up from the floor to the corner office. >>At certain points things need to be let go of if you want to keep growing. This is how you arrive at the situation Boeing is currently. Im sorry but not all businesses have a cookie cut text bo…

> Most top level legendary CEOs, could. Zuckerberg, Gates, Jack Welch, Edison, Larry Page, Sergey Brin all worked their way up from the floor to the corner office.

Sure but the tech CEOs success is an anomaly : most if not all the people you cited were able to get to the top because the context was highly exceptional (because personal computing and internet were a total greenfield).

(Also not to mention that, beyond those exceptional circumstances, most of them were already coming from pretty rich families)

Most companies in the world are not ran like this.

Re: Should managers still code?

#265

Post by egberts1 »

Does a floor boss still do work of the grinders and machinists, YES!

Intimate knowledge is what makes a boss better, not by itself alone.

Have to continually sharpen the scissors (mind) and not just the boss'.

Re: Should managers still code?

#266

Post by gsf_emergency_2 »

nkmnz wrote: post #258
howthewut wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of jobs where the bosses bosses boss does know the job as that’s where they started. Your post has an authoritative tone but is too reductive and dismisses the real world often working in a completely opposite way, so I’m not sure it’s a credible argument.

He didn't say your bosses boss is not allowed to know what you do, but that they _not necessarily_ know what you do. It's like abstractions: they can be leaky, but you'd better still know who's responsible for what.

While we're on the topic of abstractions, the summary of Bertrand Russell comes to mind:

What is work? Work is of two kinds: first, altering the position of matter at or near the earth's surface relatively to other such matter; second, telling other people to do so. The first one is unpleasant and ill paid; the second is pleasant and highly paid.

I can think of 2 patches: first, "matter" ("it") can be replaced by "bit"..

(What is the nature of the responsibilities that come with telling people what to do? Towards those who pay, who, if they did not inherit, must also have been highly paid? Towards the work/workers: it certainly helps to understand the work, but if it is neither unpleasant nor necessary, then perhaps "supplying the why" shouldn't be called a responsibility :)

Re: Should managers still code?

#267

Post by whynotminot »

felizuno wrote: post #210
protocolture wrote: post #160

I cant work for someone who doesn't understand what I do. An unused sword rusts in its sheathe. I remember working for a gent years ago, who was stressed out that my output was so low. He declared "I started this business in my living room let me show you I can do any job in this building" He came to my workspace, where I had 20 servers stacked on my workbench. He looked at them. Attached a single power cord. And the…

I guess I don't get what's objectionable about working for someone who doesn't understand how you do what you do. Isn't what matters being appreciated? I certainly can't work for someone who doesn't value what I do, but I can care less whether they actually understand how I do it.

A lot of the reason you hire someone is specifically because you don’t understand the skill required to do a thing.

I don’t learn plumbing in order to hire a plumber.

Re: Should managers still code?

#269

Post by valzam »

zdragnar wrote: post #257
impossiblefork wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your boss can do your job, he can understand what you're doing and correctly determine how you perform. One of you is only redundant if the manager doesn't have his time filled with other things. An engineering manager actually reads the output of the engineers and participates in having it applied to realise bigger projects. He makes higher level decisions about the engineering projects.

You don't really want your senior and staff engineers bogged down with career management, hr disciplinary implementation, team salary budgeting, and all the miscellaneous other duties of a manager. You want them thinking deeply about the code, the business problems, and how the two meet. In terms of evaluating job performance, you've got peer reviews, deadlines met, contributions in meetings and so forth. In other wo…

I think that's the crux though, for some reason companies think that a team of 3-5 engineers needs a full time people manager. Unless you are dealing with all juniors or a bunch of primadonnas I don't see how every team needs their own people manager.

Re: Should managers still code?

#270

Post by onion2k »

protocolture wrote: post #160

I cant work for someone who doesn't understand what I do. An unused sword rusts in its sheathe. I remember working for a gent years ago, who was stressed out that my output was so low. He declared "I started this business in my living room let me show you I can do any job in this building" He came to my workspace, where I had 20 servers stacked on my workbench. He looked at them. Attached a single power cord. And the…

I cant work for someone who doesn't understand what I do.

Why would you put a limit on your own progress like that?

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