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How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

reuters.com

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Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#261

Post by cptskippy »

pmg101 wrote: post #225
Etheryte wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this really underlines the lack of clear leadership and vision. They were already headed the right way, all they had to do was keep going.

I mean... A more accurate description might be, "They had already taken one step in the right direction, 15 years ago, all they had to do was make any further steps in this direction any time since then!"

I don't think people realize just how much thoughtful design went into the original Nissan Leaf and just how well designed it was. Sure, it's ugly as sin and a glorified golf cart with respect to it's range but it's also a rock solid EV and very forward thinking EV.

In terms of safety, it came standard with backup cameras and low speed noise features that are now mandatory on all EVs in the US. In 2013 they introduced a heat-pump option and had features like heated seats and steering wheel to reduced the climate control draw on the meager battery.

The Tesla Model 3 that came out 5 years later didn't have low speed noise, heat-pump, or heated steering wheel. Though they were added later.

In terms of reliability, it just works, so many other EVs are completely unreliable and suffer from numerous issues, many of which have nothing to do with the EV platform. Tesla, Lucid, and VW all have or had issues with door handles. GM couldn't seem to make water proof batteries that didn't explode. Kia's EVs go through 12v batteries faster than a vibrator goes through AA batteries. BMWs are great right up until you DC Fast Charge them, at which point they like to go into limp mode and throw faults.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#262

Post by adolph »

rightbyte wrote: post #248
panick21_ wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of Japan got obsessed with they whole 'hydrogen economy' nonsense. This was just the generally agree on 'future' of the economy. In my opinion this is complete nonsense and after decades very little has happened. Even for planes I don't think its the future. Just going one step further and making SAF is just a better plan. With hopefully more trains, and electric planes for many shorter routes.

At the time hydrogen was not nonsense. Good lithium batteries happened. Hydrogen is very impractical. Leaks easely and the pressure involved is scary. It is no surprise that good alternatives more or less scrapped the whole thing.

Hydrogen is also not particularly "green" without further spending for generation capacity.

Currently, most hydrogen is produced from fossil fuels, specifically natural gas. Electricity—from the grid or from renewable sources such as wind, solar, geothermal, or biomass—is also currently used to produce hydrogen. In the longer term, solar energy and biomass can be used more directly to generate hydrogen.

https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-resources

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#263

Post by margalabargala »

gottorf wrote: post #172
margalabargala wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both my grandfathers fought in Europe in WWII. When they were alive, if I had done what Elon did in front of either of them, that would have been problematic. I think that's a decent yardstick. The absolute best interpretation is that Elon is someone who does not care if he does things that look like Nazi salutes.

> I think that's a decent yardstick I have relatives who suffered under imperial powers who to this day refuse to buy products made in that country, even though they're objectively good and in some cases the best in the market. I hardly think the trauma of war makes for good judgment, even decades removed.

Let's say you convinced your relatives to stop boycotting those products. Then, the CEO of a company behind one of those products, appeared at a political rally in the ex-imperial country, wearing the symbols and colors of thebold imperial regime, and waving a flag showing the old imperial borders.

I think your relatives would be quite justified in boycotting that one product.

You can make your purchasing decisions however you like. Other's don't. Ignoring war trauma makes someone a shit businessperson, at best.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#264

Post by ImJamal »

margalabargala wrote: post #167
gottorf wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> their CEO throws Nazi salutes at political rallies Come now, even the Anti-Defamation League, hardly a habitual supporter of Musk, disagrees with this take. Your opinions are your own and you're free to believe he did Nazi salutes, but it does make you sound like you have an axe to grind.

Both my grandfathers fought in Europe in WWII. When they were alive, if I had done what Elon did in front of either of them, that would have been problematic. I think that's a decent yardstick. The absolute best interpretation is that Elon is someone who does not care if he does things that look like Nazi salutes.

Tim Walz hit his chest and then throw up a Nazi salute during the campaign. Where was the outrage? Where was the 24/7 news coverage?

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#265

Post by myrmidon »

adrian_b wrote: post #230
rr808 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BYD is unique because it can leverage the Chinese government's push into EVs along with the lax environmental regulation giving cheap batteries & other components. I dont think anyone can compete with Chinese car makers.

I believe that this thesis supported by many Americans, that the Chinese companies are too strong competitors for the US companies only due to governmental subsidies and lax environmental regulation is an extremely dangerous illusion. Until maybe 10 years ago, I would have agreed that all or at least most of the Chinese products were no better than copies of Western products. However during recent years, at least dur…

> this thesis supported by many Americans, that the Chinese companies are too strong competitors for the US companies only due to governmental subsidies and lax environmental regulation is an extremely dangerous illusion. [...] I have seen far more innovation from China than from USA.

I full agree on this.

But what people also often miss is that wage levels are not even close to comparable. Chinese manufacturing pays an average of It is absolutely expected that the US is not competitive in labor intensive industries, simply because Americans are rich. Trying to "fix" this with tariffs and relaxed regulations (to lure heavy industry/manufacturing back) is an expensive experiment doomed to fail, and taxpayers and consumers are gonna pay the price.

If you campaign with "we're gonna bring back tons of jobs that pay $5/hour, but don't worry, taxpayers/consumers are gonna pick up the difference", suddenly the whole thing does not sound that good any more.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#267

Post by VectorLock »

mauvehaus wrote: post #243
VectorLock wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet still bland and undifferentiated and a minivan.

I'm not personally convinced that minivans lend themselves to much differentiation. They all hold about seven people, and more dollars gets you more screens. It's a box on wheels that gets seven people from point a to point b. The screens help stupify the kids in the back to make the journey quieter for the adults in the front. Nobody is shopping by zero-sixty times, the maintenance intervals are all about the same,…

>I'm not personally convinced that minivans lend themselves to much differentiation.

I agree. That is why my original thesis was that Hondas are now uninspiring, undifferentiated and boring. Pretty much minivans are all those things, by default.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#268

Post by morkalork »

doubled112 wrote: post #100
cyberax wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada needs to start a campaign to promote smaller cities, rather than concentrating all the people in Toronto and Vancouver.

How small are we talking? One problem is that many Canadians move away from those smaller cities because there aren’t jobs that pay well, yet that smaller city isn’t significantly cheaper to live in. Nobody I meet is from the major Canadian city I live in now. Maybe it’s a fluke, I have only met so many people, or maybe us outsiders just managed to find each other.

This is where WFH could have changed the landscape in Canada but alas, even the federal government is getting on the back to office bandwagon. A whole bunch of your taxes are handled in Sudbury because they setup an office for the CRA there. When you call a company, if you're not talking to an agent in India/Philippines, you're probably talking to one in St John's. Unless you need to be physically present to do manual labour, there's a lot of work that can be done remotely outside of the 3 big cities. It could have been the solution to the death spiral many towns out east are facing.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#269

Post by bcatanzaro »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #136
VectorLock wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its too bad since Honda has seemed to have totally lost its luster the past decade or so. Honda was Apple to Toyota's Microsoft for a long time, now their cars are bland and undifferentiated, rather than the innovative leaders they used to be.

I have a Prologue, which is a wonderful EV. Unfortunately it’s manufactured by GM because Honda has been asleep at the wheel regarding EVs. They need to wake up and fast.

So surprising to me that GM’s most successful EV in some ways is sold by Honda.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#270

Post by thmsths »

Toutouxc wrote: post #250
protocolture wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least until the last 10 years people would try and sell Toyota on safety and reliability. People who wanted to extract every cent out of the cars life would get a toyota because it would legit go the distance without failure. Dealer told me that it doesnt hold true anymore due to electronics. But old corollas are still legendarily reliable first cars for teenagers. And I recall the used market for old hiluxes is b…

> it doesnt hold true anymore due to electronics I'm only in my thirties, but I've been hearing this exact (!) sentence, about every single brand, throughout my entire life. Surprisingly, most of the brands are still fine and selling cars.

I keep hearing that too and it feels like a huge attribution error: the cars die because of the electronics because they are the new component with the shortest lifespan, so people blame them. Yet people fail to notice that the longevity of cars is on average, trending up while the amount of electronics in them has exploded. And it makes sense if you think about it for more than a second: which would you rather die first, the cheap electronic board/sensor or the expensive mechanical part?
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