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Younger cannabis users have reduced brain function, finds largest study yet

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Re: Younger cannabis users have reduced brain function, finds largest study yet

#261

Post by armitron »

brailsafe wrote: post #91

I'm inclined to believe that there is fairly likely to be long-term negative health effects from cannabis use, but that the very obvious correlation many people in this thread can probably identify with their friends in highschool is just that, a correlation, for some reason or series of reasons. My friends who really got into weed at that time were absolutely addicted to it, and some of them I do believe let it affe…

Some of the smartest and most accomplished people I've met in my life spent their 20s experimenting heavily with weed and psychedelics. But that was not *all* they did and the goal behind this experimentation was not 'get fucked up and have fun' but fuel for their creativity and curiosity.

So it does seem that easy negative generalizations based on superficial correlations are poor models of what is actually a much more complicated reality.

Re: Younger cannabis users have reduced brain function, finds largest study yet

#262

Post by [deleted] »

poisonborz wrote: post #220
milkshakes wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that your perspective is harmful. I'm an accomplished staff engineer who has worked at multiple megacorps and valley darling companies including MANGAFANGA or whatever you call it and am highly goal oriented and passionate contributor. I started smoking weed at 13. I own multiple homes and live a well adjusted life with my wife. I support my parents and sisters. Without weed, I can get tunnel vision, or loo…

This sounds like the "my granddad smoked like a chimney and lived happily to 92" argument.

[deleted]

Re: Younger cannabis users have reduced brain function, finds largest study yet

#263

Post by roguecoder »

Xen9 wrote: post #212
brailsafe wrote: post #91

I'm inclined to believe that there is fairly likely to be long-term negative health effects from cannabis use, but that the very obvious correlation many people in this thread can probably identify with their friends in highschool is just that, a correlation, for some reason or series of reasons. My friends who really got into weed at that time were absolutely addicted to it, and some of them I do believe let it affe…

I believe weed should be subsidized and sold so that you really must not be tricked onto buying it & cannot buy it when addicted solely for reason of getting more addicted without any other reason. Otherwise though, why restrict people from being dumb? What's the opposite drug in the "South Park," senae? I would say methylphenidate+LSD makes one, not in simultaneous use, more acutely aware of need to do things. LSD p…

[citations needed], though of course first you will need to define "intelligence". The studies[1] I've seen found increased visuospatial memory and verbal fluency in the immediate aftermath of use, but decreased cognitive flexibility. Given that cognitive flexibility has been founded to have a significant impact on programming tasks [2], that seems particularly bad for this crowd.

[1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09249... [2] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/9611030

Re: Younger cannabis users have reduced brain function, finds largest study yet

#264

Post by brailsafe »

h0us3 wrote: post #239
TZubiri wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personal observation and common sense logic are often disregarded as 'unscientific', yet they are more powerful tools for learning about the world around us than sifting through hundreds of papers we are not trained to on scholar.google Weed make you dumb short term? Probably make you dumb long term. Friends who smoke weed end up dumb and underachieving? Correlation established. Life is not a college science test. So…

Funny. I have smoked regularly for two decades, yet also have two STEM degrees, a full time EE job, occasional side work, and I’m fixing up a 100 year old house. But I started in farm land learning to build with raw materials, fixing tractors and other machines, growing food, while most of my peers sat inside watching TV. My muscle and cognitive memory is well developed from development of electronics products, a lif…

> A stoned couch surfer was already a lazy couch surfer.

This is the only part of your comment that I think there's some nuance to disagree with. I don't think it's an untrue statement, but I do think it's partly a matter of whether weed or any of those maladies come into the picture before you learn to do anything remotely ambitious or self-directed. If you're already the type of person who's taking on projects, looking forward to an interesting future, challenge-seeking, etc.. then that's fine it's no problem, that's a state you're going to come back to, but it's also not something you really earned at the outset either, you're more likely to just be pre-disposed to those things early on for some reason or another.

I was and am this type of person, but I didn't really realize it in a tangible way until my early-mid twenties, and if I'd be chronically indulging in weed or drinking or gaming, it seems pretty plausible I'd never have been able to get out of the place and rut I was in, but if I wasn't in a rut, I don't think it would necessarily put me in one. I was in a terribly unambitious state in my late teens, floundering and depressed, it's not a productive personal thing to enable more methods of just dealing with it, much like being a lazy couch potato doesn't encourage a person to start a lifelong fitness journey, and having kids early should reduce your inclination to take unnecessary risks.

Anyway, I just think that while it's not to blame for a person becoming a loser, it's plausible that it doesn't help a person become not a loser if they find the crutch at the wrong time.

Re: Younger cannabis users have reduced brain function, finds largest study yet

#265

Post by brailsafe »

darthrupert wrote: post #238
anal_reactor wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As South Park put it, weed lets you feel ok about doing nothing, and that's dangerous in aggregate. I'd say, this is a huge feature, because in modern society we're losing the ability to just sit and do nothing. Look at old people, sometimes they spend hours just sitting and looking through the window, completely zoned out. I can't do that for five minutes no matter how stoned I am. My life revolves around having a…

From my experience with meditation and weed I'd claim that sitting, "zoning out" and doing nothing requires significant effort. Weed works in opposition to that. It more likely makes the mind wander more, not less. That's not always a negative thing, but I think it's almost the opposite of meditation.

I definitely think it's the opposite of meditation. Imo meditative states come from deliberate effort and shouldn't be encumbered by much else but your mind as it is.

Re: Younger cannabis users have reduced brain function, finds largest study yet

#266

Post by roguecoder »

Perenti wrote: post #145
roughly wrote: post #4

One aspect I’m curious about, especially given the younger cohort, is the causal directionality here - especially when I was younger, I knew a lot of people who were self-medicating with cannabis for things like anxiety and ADHD, which also have effects on working memory and executive function. I’ve known enough heavy users long enough that I do believe there’s long term cognitive effects (whether directly or indirec…

I've consumed far more than my fair share of cannabis, starting at age 19. I'm also almost certainly ADHD (according to friend who's a psychiatrist, but says I'm untestable), and have a meaninglessly high IQ. I've noticed that amongst very slow people, more _seem_ to have started smoking dope at a very young age (9 to 12). The idea that pot could be very bad for adolescents in particular is not a new one. I certainly…

I don't know why people still claim ADHD is "untestable" in adults, when you can just try a non-euphoric stimulant and see if they amp you up or chill you out.

I suppose, that test isn't useful for doctors trying to sort out people who want to get amped up on stimulants from those with ADHD, since it relies on subjective reporting, but if you are curious for yourself it isn't hard to find out.

(Note that there can be lots of other causes of executive function disorder, so not everyone with executive function issues responds to stimulants. But for ADHD in particular we do kind of understand the biological basis now, and the treatment has a different effect in people without that particular dendrite abnormality.)

Re: Younger cannabis users have reduced brain function, finds largest study yet

#267

Post by cj »

triceratops wrote: post #236
cj wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2. It isn't chemically addictive or habit-forming for most people. I've never understood why people claim it's not addictive when there are well established symptoms experienced when withdrawing. Disruption in sleep quality, vivid dreams, insomnia, etc. I was a nightly smoker for a long time (only after 8pm, never during the day) -- it took extraordinary effort and multiple attempts to quit. Perhaps there isn't a s…

"for most people" If you were a nightly smoker you were already addicted. Most cannabis users don't use it daily. In that way it's like alcohol. This is in contrast to tobacco users, who use it like caffeine.

By the same logic, you could say “cigarettes aren’t addictive for most people”.

Re: Younger cannabis users have reduced brain function, finds largest study yet

#268

Post by triceratops »

cj wrote: post #267
triceratops wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"for most people" If you were a nightly smoker you were already addicted. Most cannabis users don't use it daily. In that way it's like alcohol. This is in contrast to tobacco users, who use it like caffeine.

By the same logic, you could say “cigarettes aren’t addictive for most people”.

You could say that but you'd be wrong.

86% of cigarette smokers are daily smokers. [1]

Only 28% of cannabis users (note: not smokers, users) are daily users. 42% are daily or near-daily users. [2]

Cigarette smokers are 5 times more likely to be daily cannabis users. [3]

Most cannabis users don't use it daily. An overwhelming majority of cigarette smokers smoke (both tobacco and cannabis) daily. There's no comparison.

I'm very sorry for your struggles. They're not typical. I know that's cold comfort for you.

1. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5934666/

2. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38775461/

3. https://www.publichealth.columbia.edu/news/cigarette-smokers...

Re: Younger cannabis users have reduced brain function, finds largest study yet

#269

Post by cj »

triceratops wrote: post #268
cj wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the same logic, you could say “cigarettes aren’t addictive for most people”.

You could say that but you'd be wrong. 86% of cigarette smokers are daily smokers. [1] Only 28% of cannabis users (note: not smokers, users) are daily users. 42% are daily or near-daily users. [2] Cigarette smokers are 5 times more likely to be daily cannabis users. [3] Most cannabis users don't use it daily. An overwhelming majority of cigarette smokers smoke (both tobacco and cannabis) daily. There's no comparison.…

Touché.

Although those stats about cannabis support the idea that it’s addictive.

Daily or near daily use of nearly 50% of users sounds like it must be habit forming..

Re: Younger cannabis users have reduced brain function, finds largest study yet

#270

Post by triceratops »

cj wrote: post #269
triceratops wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could say that but you'd be wrong. 86% of cigarette smokers are daily smokers. [1] Only 28% of cannabis users (note: not smokers, users) are daily users. 42% are daily or near-daily users. [2] Cigarette smokers are 5 times more likely to be daily cannabis users. [3] Most cannabis users don't use it daily. An overwhelming majority of cigarette smokers smoke (both tobacco and cannabis) daily. There's no comparison.…

Touché. Although those stats about cannabis support the idea that it’s addictive. Daily or near daily use of nearly 50% of users sounds like it must be habit forming..

> Daily or near daily use of nearly 50% of users sounds like it must be habit forming..

Practically all of those daily/near daily cannabis users (5/6th of them) are tobacco smokers, as I also pointed out.

From the third article I cited: https://www.publichealth.columbia.edu/news/cigarette-smokers... says, compared to non-smokers, smokers are 5 times more likely to be daily cannabis users.

Tobacco is intensely addictive.

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