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Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

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Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#261

Post by Spivak »

kspacewalk2 wrote: post #211
kaonwarb wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just rewatched and agree they both entered on orange, which is legal. This clear misinterpretation makes me question the author's take as a whole. Did they consider that cars also regularly run stop signs? Is it possible that this is, in fact, safer for pedestrians, albeit more frustrating while waiting?

What difference does it make? The main point is that this design induces drivers to speed up even more than they're already speeding (and, this being North America, they're already speeding), at a dangerous point in time when pedestrians are starting to cross. It literally makes no practical difference whether they're entering on a very late yellow or a red.

Traffic engineers aren't blind to the fact that it's NA custom to (roughly) +5 on residential, +8 on state highways, and +5-15 depending on on the lane on interstates. People get up in arms about it on the internet for some reason while IRL the roads are just designed with this in mind.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#262

Post by itishappy »

simiones wrote: post #84

It's very strange to complain that cars run red lights, but somehow not stop signs. I expect that if the intersection were as empty as it was when he was filming, you'd easily find people driving at a similar speed regardless of the stop signs too.

My experience has been that cars will happily roll through stop signs, but at nowhere near full speed like they're doing here.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#263

Post by mig39 »

I hate the idea of crosswalks at intersections. I know it's tradition, and why they exist.

But wouldn't it make more sense to have crosswalks in between the intersections? ie: a few hundred feet away from where vehicles are intersecting with each other?

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#264

Post by horsawlarway »

xiphias2 wrote: post #237
horsawlarway wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if California has a different law, but at least in my state it is very much illegal to accelerate into a yellow light. Enforcement is basically non-existent, but it's absolutely "running the light" and "breaking the law" to accelerate into yellow lights.

I don't know USA, but in other parts of the world yellow and red are different colors. Just because 2 things are illegal they aren't the same, and it takes away all seriousness from the article for me.

Genuinely - why do you care?

His point is absolutely correct - the cars used to stop, and now instead they're accelerating to beat a light change.

I genuinely don't know if that's actually illegal in cali - but it definitely is in several states, and you'll get ticketed for failing to stop for a red light.

---

> but in other parts of the world yellow and red are different colors.

Yellow is the light that means "start stopping" and red is the one that means "absolutely stop". Neither damn color is the "go faster" color.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#265

Post by sumeno »

itishappy wrote: post #138
potato3732842 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's... not true? With light traffic a 4 way stop should have no cars at all at it most of the time, leaving pedestrians with the right of way, whereas with a traffic light there will always be a road with priority until a pedestrian hits the button. Requiring cars to pay attention to the condition of the intersection is the explicit design goal. >This was laid out very clearly in the article we just read. This is…

> ... the situational awareness of every driver who's about to get their turn is mostly absorbed in monitoring who's turn it is and who's going where. Right, that's the intent. Drivers paying attention to their surroundings is the goal. > So if you're a pedestrian and you don't time it right you could find yourself starting to cross right before someone wants to drive where you're crossing. Usually this is because yo…

> Right, that's the intent. Drivers paying attention to their surroundings is the goal.

The drivers are paying attention to the cars, not the pedestrians

> You have the right of way!

Graveyards are full of people who had the right of way.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#266

Post by crackercrews »

dleslie wrote: post #205
crackercrews wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> designed with cars in mind, not human beings This is a bad faith framing. The cars are driven by humans. Or in the case of autonomous driving, are driving humans around. I've come up to plenty of lights that had the pedestrian signal lit even though there were no pedestrians. This happens during the day and at night, and is frustrating. Just happened the other day when I was driving around midnight. Not a pedestria…

If the designers were truly considering the well-being of the occupants of the vehicles then they would be designing cities to minimize the time spent in vehicles; which means more than saving a few seconds at a stop light, it means getting them out of their cars entirely.

That might fly in temperate parts of California, but it sure doesn't work in places with less pedestrian-friendly weather.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#267

Post by runako »

avgDev wrote: post #226
runako wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least one California law firm disagrees, hence my question: https://www.wccbc.com/red-and-yellow-light-accidents/#:~:tex... . Some quick Googling shows that "it depends on where" appears to be the right answer. New Jersey appears to be a populated jurisdiction where this might not be legal.

As I said MOST US states. I looked at the link and NO, they DO NOT DISAGREE. Read the language, drivers SPEEDING through a yellow light MAY be found negligent if they cause an injury to someone. "California’s yellow light law permits drivers to enter an intersection during a yellow light. No violation exists unless any part of the car is over the stopping line when the light turns red. However, the law encourages dri…

I'm reading this differently than you are:

"No violation exists unless any part of the car is over the stopping line when the light turns red."

But I'm not a lawyer and this is interpreting an interpretation.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#268

Post by gs17 »

zer0x4d wrote: post #244
CalRobert wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm literally just trying to stop drivers from killing my kids when they bike to school. Some "lifestyle".

The way you make your kids safe bikers: 1. NEVER RIDE ON THE SIDEWALK. Cars on the street cannot see you due to other parked cars and WILL make right or left turn on you. Additionaly, cars coming out of parking lots won't see you on the sidewalk. 2. NEVER RIDE ON OPPOSITE SIDE. Ride on the same direction as cars, make yourself visible. 3. INDICATE ALL TURNS WITH HAND SIGNALS. Be predictable. Don't just turn or otherw…

> 1. NEVER RIDE ON THE SIDEWALK. Cars on the street cannot see you due to other parked cars and WILL make right or left turn on you. Additionaly, cars coming out of parking lots won't see you on the sidewalk.

How about to avoid hitting people walking? It's not always safe for pedestrians to jump into the street to avoid a guy on a bike.

> 3. INDICATE ALL TURNS WITH HAND SIGNALS. Be predictable. Don't just turn or otherwise behave unpredictably. Indicate turns, make eye contact and then turn.

You should also explain to them that 99% of drivers will not understand the typical bike hand signals. Making eye contact will help a lot, but mostly it makes sure they're watching you.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#269

Post by shepherdjerred »

dheera wrote: post #220

"pedestrians have to press the beg button, wait for the light to cycle through its routine, and then walk across the street" Quite often what happens is - Pedestrian presses button - Light doesn't change for 30 seconds and there are no cars in sight - Pedestrian goes "fuck it" and crosses - Light changes red, after pedestrian is done crossing - Car comes along and gets stopped at red light for 30 seconds

I wonder why these buttons don't immediately allow pedestrians to cross (maybe with some rate limiting to avoid abuse).

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#270

Post by AndyMcConachie »

As someone who lives in The Netherlands I basically just don't understand anything about traffic/pedestrian engineering in the USA. I travel to the USA quite frequently and I never quite know what the rules are as a pedestrian.

I've learned to look both ways and move quickly, but I don't have the confidence or assertiveness that I do at home.

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