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The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

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Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#261
The top comment pretty much sums up everything that’s wrong with DRM:

> Lest one get the impression that hardware DRM fairs any better than software: Even 4K/HDR versions of streaming media start making the rounds on pirate sites within a day or two of release.

> As usual DRM fails to prevent piracy while hurting the experience of paying customers.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, and more to the point there's nothing special about a TPM design-wise. It's actually a very odd kind of chip that only really exists due to the unique political and market requirements of the PC industry. If you look at vertically integrated platforms like Apple's, or the games consoles, or smartphones, there's no TPM. There are subsystems that do similar things, but none of them follow the TPM design specs. E…

TPM is a missed opportunity. What I really want for security is a solid secure enclave scheme on the CPU itself so my SE code can blaze. The TPM is not programmable and is very limited, both in terms of its API and in terms of its capabilities (e.g., number of keys loaded, number of algorithms supported, ...) and in terms of its performance. My point in my above reply was to say that even if TPMs were used by GPUs th…

Despite the bad press it's received over the years, SGX is a very solid design and works pretty well. Some of the papers presenting breaks turned out to be quite misleading when I looked closely at them some years ago. If you want a general purpose TEE then you could do worse than play with it.

Unfortunately it's not available on consumer hardware anymore, and in the cloud only Azure really supports it AFAIK. And you have to write apps for it specifically, and then you have to have clients that know how to do remote attestation and bind it to secure channels, and you have to program in a threat model in which rewinds are possible at any moment. This is very hard, and it turns out most people in the market don't really care about their data that much (are happy to share it with trustworthy institutions). So it never really took off. But the tech is decent.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#263
post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The peak was the release, after which it promptly cratered. It was below half that within a month and below 14k the next month.

This obsession with concurrent player counts, especially for single player games, is just obtuse. It's not actually telling what you want to believe.

Even if we do go by concurrent players, Black Myth Wukong had one of the biggest launches in Steams history with a peak concurrent of 2.4 million players, and that hasn't been cracked either after five months.

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#264
post #92
post #26

> I'm going to be honest here and say that I don't know what Microsoft's actual motivation for requiring a TPM in Windows 11 is. It is quite obvious: to force people to buy a new PC. TPM provides no added security value for the vast majority of users[1] but it is a convenient hardware that has only started to become standard (fTPM) in PCs built in the last ~8 years so it provides an excuse for Microsoft to declare co…

Requiring TPM can actually benefit multiplayer video games because it introduces a secure way to identify hardware being used by cheaters. Right now everything being used by games is easily spoofed by cheats so cheaters just need to get a new account to continue cheating after being banned.

then you just sit on the unencrypted pci bus and sniff the interesting stuff out of it

(e.g. display lists)

already some hacks doing this

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#265

The top comment pretty much sums up everything that’s wrong with DRM: > Lest one get the impression that hardware DRM fairs any better than software: Even 4K/HDR versions of streaming media start making the rounds on pirate sites within a day or two of release. > As usual DRM fails to prevent piracy while hurting the experience of paying customers.

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Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#266
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Knees probably better -- break my fingers and I can't give you my password

I didn't break your jaw, so you can still communicate. Point taken though, start with the toes, it gives you more to work with if you have to progress up the leg.

I don't know what my computer's password is, it's muscle memory

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#267
post #26

> I'm going to be honest here and say that I don't know what Microsoft's actual motivation for requiring a TPM in Windows 11 is. It is quite obvious: to force people to buy a new PC. TPM provides no added security value for the vast majority of users[1] but it is a convenient hardware that has only started to become standard (fTPM) in PCs built in the last ~8 years so it provides an excuse for Microsoft to declare co…

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Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#268

I have to wonder A) What does DRM realistically accomplish for the media companies? And, B) How are these DRM schemes actually being defeated? I do occasionally don my pirate hat* and have never had an issue finding what I want at the quality I want within an hour of a episode/movie being released to streaming. That would seem to indicate that these efforts at DRM are actually failing to have any noticeable effect at…

[deleted]

Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#269

2008, Protected Audio/Video Path (PAVP), https://www.anandtech.com/show/2622/2 Movie studios wanted a way of securing the content between the time the AACS was decrypted and the HDCP encryption took over. Once the AACS was decrypted the encoded movie was sitting in main memory and could be intercepted by any other application.. The solution was to re-encrypt the data once it was pulled off the disc (I'm not kidding).…

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Re: The GPU, not the TPM, is the root of hardware DRM

#270

I have to wonder A) What does DRM realistically accomplish for the media companies? And, B) How are these DRM schemes actually being defeated? I do occasionally don my pirate hat* and have never had an issue finding what I want at the quality I want within an hour of a episode/movie being released to streaming. That would seem to indicate that these efforts at DRM are actually failing to have any noticeable effect at…

DRM has definitely made pirating more difficult, and that is good enough for media companies, even though it is not enough to stop all forms of it. Also as others have pointed out, often it has more business/legal meaning than technical meaning.

One example -- it has made creating pirated videos almost inaccessible to most people. In the past, if all other methods fail, you can always just record your screen with a common recording application. That's not possible with GPU enabled DRM, which is enough to stop a casual consumer to share a movie to their friends (even at a less ideal quality).

> have never had an issue finding what I want at the quality I want within an hour of a episode/movie being released to streaming.

That's because you are consuming mainstream/popular media. You often won't find recordings of a lot of performance art (ballet, concerts etc)* and I-am-not-going-to-name-it-content because there is a lot less demand.

* an interesting exception is that a lot of content released via Blu-ray gets decrypted, ripped and torrented.

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