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Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

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Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#261

Post by yoavm »

Bilal_io wrote: post #223
yoavm wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the OP, but here's one I feel quite uncomfortable with: https://quran.com/en/an-nisa/155/tafsirs - "The Hour will not start, until after the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them. The Jew will hide behind a stone or tree, and the tree will say, `O Muslim! O servant of Allah! This is a Jew behind me, come and kill him". Other examples from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An-Nisa include "Men are the prote…

> Not the OP, but here's one I feel quite uncomfortable with: https://quran.com/en/an-nisa/155/tafsirs - "The Hour will not start, until after the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them. The Jew will hide behind a stone or tree, and the tree will say, `O Muslim! O servant of Allah! This is a Jew behind me, come and kill him". This is not part of the Quran, but a Hadeeth, and the meaning of it is that the Je…

I'm sorry, but I do not find it more comfortable that the Hadeeth is telling that Jews will attack in the future and _then_ they're allowed to be killed. It sounds like a bad start to me. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion was also just saying that Jews have some secret plan for the future, and it didn't end up great.

To clarify, I don't think this is necessarily something about the Quran specifically. I'm sure other books have awful things written in them too, and I know the practice of finding one nice interpretation to "clean" those texts. Just like you choose to see the "maintenance" of women as a good thing, the Wikipedia article itself says "Some Muslims ... argue that Muslim men use the text as an excuse for domestic violence". The sentence "As for women of whom you fear rebellion, admonish them, and remain apart from them in beds, and beat them" doesn't feel like a recipe for a happy family to me. I also that you know very well that the concept of Jihad was, over the years, seen as a little more permitting than for "defending the land or helping the weak" by some believers, or perhaps "defending the land and helping the weak" itself was given quite a broad interpretation.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#262

Post by Dalewyn »

kopirgan wrote: post #246
modeless wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software expands to fill the available resources. If you want more efficient software, build it on less powerful hardware. AI training runs are no exception!

Can't agree more. Especially as I wait to download 1.3gb file to update some Windows driver like Realtek audio or LED display, and you realise a whole effing Debian operating system with Xfce & apps can fit in a lot less.

Whoever are downvoting this really don't understand that expanding a congested highway merely widens the congestion instead of alleviating it.

Software today require several dozen gigabytes of RAM and two dozen CPU cores just to render some simple fucking text because everyone has several dozen gigabytes of RAM and two dozen CPU cores.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#263

Post by lolinder »

A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #250
lolinder wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And now they're at the point where the population pyramid is collapsing. It's hard to make any predictions about the future when they got here riding a baby boom and now their ratio of elderly to working age is about to go through the roof. https://www.populationpyramid.net/china/2023/

Japan, Germany, Italy, and numerous other countries are all much worse off. Assuming things don't change, China in 2050 will be in approximately the same position as Japan today . Germany and Italy, to take but two examples of large Western economies, haven't had native above-replacement TFR since ~1970. Even in the US, TFR is well below replacement right now, and in fact is basically comparable to China's TFR from 2…

Unalloyed good or not, it's way better than where China is at. And I'm not sure why "other countries are going to be even worse off soon" is an argument in favor of China being on the verge of surpassing as a superpower the one country on your list that is actually growing in population.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#264

Post by sangnoir »

manquer wrote: post #177
zitterbewegung wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you actually believe that NVIDA gpus are import restricted there are many stories that this is being sidestepped.

Not to the volume needed to compete with the training infrastructure setups of Anthropic or OpenAI or other leading players No ban is perfect, there is always some loopholes or illegal exports this is to be expected, but if it prevents large scale transaction then it it is achieved its goal. The question is rather do they we need a lot of gpus to train or training with older gen gpus is not competitive is a different…

> if it prevents large scale transaction then it it is achieved its goal.

It doesn't prevent the transactions, it only makes them more expensive than they would have been otherwise. If the the US was able to covertly buy enough titanium from the USSR for the SR-71 program, China can buy the latest GPUs if it believes AI competence is in its national interests.

Oh look, there's sudden demand for H100s of by dozens of small companies in Brazil, Hong Kong, Vietnam, Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia and Thailand. I better not look too closely at them or I won't get my sales bonus for this quarter.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#265

Post by jki275 »

cess11 wrote: post #170
yoavm wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the OP, but here's one I feel quite uncomfortable with: https://quran.com/en/an-nisa/155/tafsirs - "The Hour will not start, until after the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them. The Jew will hide behind a stone or tree, and the tree will say, `O Muslim! O servant of Allah! This is a Jew behind me, come and kill him". Other examples from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An-Nisa include "Men are the prote…

The New Testament has similar passages. One of the most well known has Jesus attacking pilgrims and money changers in the temple. John is rather obviously antijewish. "I have not come with peace" is another well known, not very palatable one.

That's a significant misunderstanding of the NT.

Jesus drove the money changers out of the Temple, because they were violating the Temple with their presence and their actions -- preying on poor people there.

Jesus' primary message was love (Love thy neighbor as thyself), peace, and the path to righteousness (Sell all your goods, give them to the poor, and follow me -- no man comes to the Father but through me).

The OT is far more violent, but given for a specific people at a specific time and those things are not ordered for modern day Christianity -- modern day Christians are commanded to spread the gospel to the ends of the earth, but also to be meek, and every example we have after Peter's ill-advised attempt to defend Christ the night of his crucifixion is an example of following the law where possible and being peaceful.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#266

Post by Dalewyn »

roca wrote: post #248
bugglebeetle wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> US economy being the strongest in decades The vast majority of its people do not share in that success and have seen a declining standard of life relative to prior generations whereas in China, the opposite is quite demonstrably true, despite increasingly similar concentrations of wealth and political power.

On the contrary, real wages in the USA are the highest they've ever been. Social media and fentanyl are making people unhappy but for most people it's not an economic problem.

The bad economy is the biggest (arguably only) reason Trump won against Harris, and by a landslide at that.

You may think that expensive gasoline and cartons of eggs are a meme, but the reality is that the economy has become pretty damn Shite(tm) for the commons. Costs of living are objectively higher than they were just a couple years ago and incomes haven't kept pace either.

The stock market is having the time of its life (and as a small time investor I find that nice) but it's completely detached from the economy.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#267

Post by vkou »

lolinder wrote: post #232
vkou wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The jump between 'data was withheld' and 'there was a coverup of an incredibly improbable thing happening' compared to 'very probable thing that was also supported by data happening' is colossal. Absence of data isn't a free pass that lets you fill in whatever blanks you want, to fit whatever improbable theory you want. Especially when a plausible, probable, data supported alternative exists. At the moment, given wha…

Sorry, I edited my comment to ask this as the conclusion: > Why is a wet market a more convincing explanation than a lab whose explicit mission is studying coronaviruses, one which has been publicly called out for being uncooperative with the ensuing investigation? It's possible that the widespread belief in this explanation is a failure in science communication and there's a good reason for this, but it's not a fail…

I don't think the desire to see the conspiracy and not the boring, mundane explanation is a failure of communication, scientific thinking, or critical reasoning skills.

I think it's simply the consequences of politically motivated reasoning. (At least, for people who have spent much time thinking about it.)

> I've yet to see anyone effectively communicate why the intuitively more probable answer is the less probable one.

I just communicated why the market leak theory is both more intuitive, and more probable.

There were two possible sources for the virus in the city, and hundreds of thousands of non-sources for it. The first detected source of it was the market.

If the first outbreak of it were in the lab, (but was hidden), probability and intuition indicates that the next place it would have shown up at would have been some randomly selected place of the city, which has nothing to do with viruses. A mall. A theatre. A ball game.

The fact that of all the possibilities, it showed up in the one particular place that is also a prime suspect for it's own viral outbreak means that the most obvious explanation (market leak) is likely the correct one.

When a swine flu outbreak is traced to a particular stall in a factory farm, we don't conclude (without further evidence) that actually it was caused by a university miles away.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#268

Post by kopirgan »

stingrae wrote: post #253
kopirgan wrote: post #241

Interesting (mis)use of the word catfish Not how we normally understand

I would argue it is correct use of the word. In English, there are multiple meanings of catfish like bottom feeder.

haha lol given your name, I should agree. It was for fun anyway.

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#269

Post by nsoonhui »

SubiculumCode wrote: post #115
bufferoverflow wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DeepSeek was trained for a fraction of the cost compared to OpenAI/Anthropic models. If they were given comparable resources, I imagine their model would outperform everything on the market by a wide margin.

DeepSeek, like lots of models, was trained using chatgpt input output pairs.

But isn't chatgpt explicitly prohibiting such use?

Re: Deepseek: The quiet giant leading China’s AI race

#270

Post by kopirgan »

Dalewyn wrote: post #262
kopirgan wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't agree more. Especially as I wait to download 1.3gb file to update some Windows driver like Realtek audio or LED display, and you realise a whole effing Debian operating system with Xfce & apps can fit in a lot less.

Whoever are downvoting this really don't understand that expanding a congested highway merely widens the congestion instead of alleviating it. Software today require several dozen gigabytes of RAM and two dozen CPU cores just to render some simple fucking text because everyone has several dozen gigabytes of RAM and two dozen CPU cores.

Thanks..Among many other issues, it is also a serious crippling factor for communities and countries that are low on budget/resources & a disaster for recycling, climate change etc etc.
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