Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps • Hacker News Board

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#261

Post by NemoNobody » Thu, Dec 19, 2024, 1:49 AM UTC

mike978 wrote: post #231

papandada wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never heard anyone say the early church wrestled with polytheism. Maybe that's my bias nestled in Christian circles of not using that word, in favour of something more like "the nature of the triune Godhead", etc.

For those curious about the trinity what it is and why it is important to Christian faith I highly recommend Delighting in the Trinity by Michael Reeves [1] "...what kind of God could outstrip the attractions of all other things? Could any unitary, single-person god do so? Hardly, or at least not for long. Single-person gods must, by definition, have spent eternity in absolute solitude. Before creation, having no oth…

This is something best between you and God - let kno others tell you what this is, it is perhaps the most powerful thing ever revealed to us.

3 that equal 1.

It's a fundamental rule found everywhere - there is a softer voice within that will speak to of it but you have to ask it to tell you and then have ears to hear it.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#262

Post by kcplate » Thu, Dec 19, 2024, 1:51 AM UTC

krapp wrote: post #238

kcplate wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily but like much interpretations differ. An old retired pastor friend once described the story of Mary anointing Christ with the expensive oil and being chastised by Judas as a “waste” with Jesus correcting Judas (John 12). He expressed that story as possibly symbolic of how we should regard Christ as the glorious king of kings and despite His servant humility, He is still deserving of the finest we have…

It does seem like an odd attitude for a messiah who commands his followers to give up their entire identity for a life of extreme poverty and charity - who took a whip to the moneychangers in the temple and denounced the rich as unworthy of heaven - to insist on opulence and luxury for himself. I think Judas had a point.

Did He insist on it, or did He allow it to happen? Also, did He ask everyone to give up their identity and live a life of poverty?

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#263

Post by zapperdulchen » Thu, Dec 19, 2024, 1:51 AM UTC

NemoNobody wrote: post #254

loudmax wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Centre Place youtube channel has some pretty good lectures, including some very good lectures on Judaism and early Christianity: https://www.youtube.com/@centre-place/playlists The videos are presented by a pastor of the Community of Christ church in Toronto, but they're from a historical rather than religious perspective.

I'd be very careful what you let others tell you about Early Christianity - almost exclusively they will explain to you how whatever belief they have now came out of it and compare the two and determine today we have truth... Early was earlier tho - the people that twist our recent revelations about the content of the testaments to support the perverted teaching today are literally twisting the closest text in existe…

I am not sure what do you mean by your hint. Stating that the Gospel of Thomas predates all other Gospels is not a view that is shared by many scientists.

One source of many: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gospel_of_Thoma...

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#264

Post by batch12 » Thu, Dec 19, 2024, 1:53 AM UTC

dmonitor wrote: post #250

NemoNobody wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are a believer I take it - did he not split the veil? Why do you think you can pick and chose what he invalidates and what he doesn't? He left one - ONE rule with two parts, it's very simple, even children have the ability to understand. Every Christian I speak always says something like this - "a common misconception" " not my understanding" "according to the church fathers" - so many quite not Jesus at to count…

The shape of the modern church frustrates me to no end. I consider myself a believer, but every time I look at a Christian organization I find their foundational document to be "The Book of Common Prayer" or some other 16th century nonsense. Do we really need to have each member give 10% of their income so we can pay one guy upwards of six figures to give a 30-minute motivational speech once a week? That was probably…

A Samaritan was essentially the enemy of the Jew which is what makes the story so poignant.

As for how to interact with non believers, Paul talks about this in his letters to the Romans and the church in Corinth.

1 Corinthians 2:14 NIV [14] The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 5:11-13 NIV [11] But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people. [12] What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? [13] God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you"

Romans 8:7-8 NIV [7] The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. [8] Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

The reason Christians are encouraged to bring the gospel to non believers is commonly referred to as the great commission. However this should be given and not forced .

Luke 9:5 NIV [5] If people do not welcome you, leave their town and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.”

2 Timothy 2:24-26 NIV [24] And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. [25] Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, [26] and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

Even so, Christians should expect to be hated

John 15:18-19 NIV [18] “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. [19] If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#265

Post by stvltvs » Thu, Dec 19, 2024, 2:01 AM UTC

o11c wrote: post #229

stvltvs wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as the approach is rigorous scholarship in good faith (is it?), it shouldn't matter too much.

I can't speak for the particular material referenced, but ... good faith is a lot to ask for in religious meta-literature. So often I see arguments based on the following: * Start by assuming all the weird stuff didn't actually happen. We all know that fiction is stranger than truth. * Next, assume it's impossible to foretell the future (in particular, "people who hate each other will start a war" can obviously only…

I gave one episode a listen and can now say it's not what you described. They conveyed actual scholarship but kept it light-hearted. Religious fundamentalists might not like it because it doesn't start from the assumption that the canonical Bible is inerrant, but for anyone who wants to learn about the Bible from an open-minded viewpoint, I think it's worth a listen.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#266

Post by dmonitor » Thu, Dec 19, 2024, 2:05 AM UTC

batch12 wrote: post #255

dmonitor wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The shape of the modern church frustrates me to no end. I consider myself a believer, but every time I look at a Christian organization I find their foundational document to be "The Book of Common Prayer" or some other 16th century nonsense. Do we really need to have each member give 10% of their income so we can pay one guy upwards of six figures to give a 30-minute motivational speech once a week? That was probably…

The pastors and priests I know do much more than 30 minutes of work a week. In addition to the sermon, they provide counseling, perform weddings, funerals, attend each if not leading, visit the sick and homebound, attend to church business, help coordinate activities, help solve conflicts, represent the church, do Bible studies during the week, help with children's programs and so on. I don't think I would have the s…

There are definitely sects that take the job much more seriously than others. I personally have known too many that basically end up coordinating a group of volunteer assistant pastors and deacons to nearly all of the work. Frequent month-long vacations as well (they're called "sabbaticles" because it sounds biblical).

They also frequently run into some moral scandal (plagiarism, adultery, theft), plead for forgiveness (because reporting them to the denomination heads would leave them jobless), and then move states to repeat the playbook elsewhere.

Some of the kindest, most thoughtful people I've met were pastors too, though, so I won't say that the entire profession is evil. The monetary and social status incentives that the position grants also attracts some of the worst people, though.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#267

Post by batch12 » Thu, Dec 19, 2024, 2:14 AM UTC

NemoNobody wrote: post #234

ARandomerDude wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly right. One way to know the Sabbath is moral rather than ceremonial is the Sabbath was established in Genesis 2:1-3. That means the Sabbath pre-dates the Law, and even pre-dates sin. So Adam and Eve would have kept the Sabbath before the Fall, and so would have all their posterity if they had never fallen. As confirmation of that idea, Exodus 20:11 states that the reason God gives the fourth commandment is bec…

Adam and Eve had no conception of the Sabbath - they never worked or labored for anything prior to leaving the garden. God walked and talked with them daily, whenever apparently - what need for their to be to recognize that which is accessible and available all the days. What purpose would a God have at all for the life inside his creations to set aside 1/7 of their time "for him" anyways? Lots of silly, silly stuff…

It's important to remember that the sabbath was a gift to man from God per Jesus

Mark 2:27 NIV [27] Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#268

Post by NemoNobody » Thu, Dec 19, 2024, 2:19 AM UTC

JackFr wrote: post #103

kibwen wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even today plenty of Christian sects refuse to recognize the council of Nicaea's interpretation of the trinity, including the Mormons and the Jehovah's witnesses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism (Whether or not any of these flirt with polytheism is up for debate.) Meanwhile, the Catholic church's own profusion of saints whom you are supposed to beseech for specific blessings is dangerously close to a…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filioque - to this day the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church disagree on whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, or from the Father and the Son.

From the Father, as all things are, but the Son directs it thereafter.

The Holy Spirit is like the force - it's behind all things, like lines of code behind a web page - but more specifically it's similar to a background process within a system that allows for all actions on the page to exist, by their causes, their consequences and the ensuing causes and consequences and so on forever and since the start of time.

The Holy Spirit is similar to fate but unlike fate we have ability to dictate and direct our reality - like in "How to Win Friends and Influence People" this is the force within reality that delivers what we expect and believe will be.

This is what pushes us along - individually and collectively, that which is behind evolution and behind the miracle rain dance is the same thing.

Faith that moves mountains is merely the most known example of the ability attained by our true understanding of the Holy Spirit - it allows us to access all the powers and forces and laws and systems of this reality and utilize them to our benefit and ends. One who knows and has faith has higher authority than all worldly authorities and can bend them to utilize them to attain whatever desires.

If one needs the Queen of England to write a letter, that person must only believe - enough to kno for certain, that she has already done so and it will be so.

Expectation is part of asking when we have desires of God - ask and expect to receive - expect more, ask less. Asking is less important than expecting - faith is part belief, for example a belief that you can ask God - the other part is expecting God to deliver as he said he would...

Again, this is a rant but this conversation hopefully adds to your spiritual progression faster than the teachings I'm reading professed here will allow any of you.

I have faith that those with hears will hear and act accordingly, there are no limits - only consequences.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#269

Post by NemoNobody » Thu, Dec 19, 2024, 2:20 AM UTC

xdennis wrote: post #170

kibwen wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even today plenty of Christian sects refuse to recognize the council of Nicaea's interpretation of the trinity, including the Mormons and the Jehovah's witnesses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism (Whether or not any of these flirt with polytheism is up for debate.) Meanwhile, the Catholic church's own profusion of saints whom you are supposed to beseech for specific blessings is dangerously close to a…

As an Atheist (formally Orthodox), I think I can adjudicate this. The problem with the First Council of Nicaea was that it was decided wrong. The whole "there are three gods, but only one god" is inherently confusing. There's a reason why Arianism keeps recurring over and over again. All the new nations who have been introduced to this aspect of Christianity find it bizarre. If the decision would have been more along…

3 strokes and your out. There cannot be an out without 3 strokes - each strike equal in importance to the out but each strike is unique.

That is the Trinity.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#270

Post by dmonitor » Thu, Dec 19, 2024, 2:22 AM UTC

batch12 wrote: post #264

dmonitor wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The shape of the modern church frustrates me to no end. I consider myself a believer, but every time I look at a Christian organization I find their foundational document to be "The Book of Common Prayer" or some other 16th century nonsense. Do we really need to have each member give 10% of their income so we can pay one guy upwards of six figures to give a 30-minute motivational speech once a week? That was probably…

A Samaritan was essentially the enemy of the Jew which is what makes the story so poignant. As for how to interact with non believers, Paul talks about this in his letters to the Romans and the church in Corinth. 1 Corinthians 2:14 NIV [14] The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned onl…

> The reason Christians are encouraged to bring the gospel to non believers is commonly referred to as the great commission. However this should be given and not forced .

I'm familiar, but it's tangential to what I'm saying. I'm referring to the belief that you should only engage with non-believers because it represents a recruitment opportunity. It's not a belief that I see preached (often), but it's definitely one that I see people practice. The view that relationships with non-believers is inherently adversarial is one that I don't appreciate.