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The capacitor that Apple soldered incorrectly at the factory

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Re: The capacitor that Apple soldered incorrectly at the factory

#261

Post by kube-system »

com2kid wrote: post #202
kube-system wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I would hope those bulbs were built pretty well, they were crazy expensive... expensive enough that they wouldn't be competitive in lifetime-per-dollar against today's crappiest bulbs even if they lasted a person's entire lifetime. > I don't think I've had any last more than 5 years. Do you shut them off every 3 hours? That's probably what the estimate on the box is based on. Run the same bulb half the day and y…

> I've seen them. And dissected my own. Still, at the price that modern LED bulbs are being made, I'm surprised they're built as well as they are. Brand name Sylvania bulbs are $0.79/ea in a bulk Amazon right now. LED bulbs aren't lasting any longer than incandescent bulbs used to. My house has 2 bathrooms, one had incandescent bulbs when I moved in and I didn't bother to replace them. Those incandescent bulbs have o…

Either you are misremembering incandescent bulbs or you're buying some real hot garbage LED bulbs. It used to be a regular chore to replace bulbs and people would keep a stock on hand like they'd keep soap or toilet paper. Incandescents usually lasted 1,200 hours, LEDs of today last around 11,000. Nobody's bulbs are lasting 250,000 hours, and if they did they wouldn't be 4x the price of the 11k hour bulbs.

The reason indicator LEDs last a different amount of time is because they are very different applications. If you want to walk around your house lit by an indicator lamp, go right ahead, but most people want more light, and more light = more heat and degradation of the diode.

Re: The capacitor that Apple soldered incorrectly at the factory

#262

Post by dotancohen »

rcxdude wrote: post #258
dotancohen wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> bulb lifetime is a trade off between lumens, filament life, and energy consumption At a specific temperature, using specific materials. There is no reason to suspect that material science would not advance. Or other constraints would change. A specific company choosing that particular sweetspot for a particular product line is fine. But a collusion between companies dictating that specific constraint (in lieu of, e…

>At a specific temperature, using specific materials. The temperature of incandescent bulbs is directly related to the light that they give off, and tungsten is the obvious best material, there's no other materials on the horizon giving an improvement for the tech. It really is a pretty well understood tradeoff surface on a very mature technology (which was then displaced by completely different ones).

Advancements in materials led to LED bulbs, which operate under different principles and run fall cooler. Yet the time-limited bulb lifetime remains.

Re: The capacitor that Apple soldered incorrectly at the factory

#263

Post by kube-system »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #243
kube-system wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think people want 30 year old washing machines, you're kidding yourself. Do you remember what washing machines were like in the 1990s? They were noisy and tore up clothing. Not only would I not want to use one of these outdated machines, nor display it in my home, but I also wouldn't have wanted to move it to the dozen different addresses I have lived at since then. At least in the US, people move frequently,…

> If you think people want 30 year old washing machines, you're kidding yourself. You say this in the same breath you talk about people being desperate for any cheapest appliance instead of having nothing? > And literally zero people are buying a house based on the bearings in the washing machine. Well that's them being dumb.

> You say this in the same breath you talk about people being desperate for any cheapest appliance instead of having nothing?

Yes? I think you’re suggesting that the existence of old machines would be good for the poor. That’s true. However, manufacturers don’t make used machines. They only make new ones. So the forces of supply and demand do not apply.

> Well that's them being dumb.

Wat. No I’d say choosing a home based on location, school district, or inherent qualities of the home itself is a less dumb idea.

Re: The capacitor that Apple soldered incorrectly at the factory

#264

Post by Dylan16807 »

kube-system wrote: post #260
Dylan16807 wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A more durable product exists, and yet, even you don't want to pay more for it. This is disingenuous as hell. I want to buy a version that cost 15% more to make. I don't want to buy a version that cost 3x as much to make (or is priced as if it does). When I can't find the former, that is part of problem. When I don't buy the latter, that is not part of the problem. > They're making these options intentionally becau…

> I want to buy a version that cost 15% more to make. I don't want to buy a version that cost 3x as much to make (or is priced as if it does). Well, it just doesn't work that way. Premium components that truly extend product life are multiplicatively more expensive than what you'll find in value engineered products, if not exponentially so. Furthermore, a product that is 15% more expensive than competitors won't sell…

You are the one that came up with the 15% number. And you also said that the difference between a 5 year washing machine and a 30 year washing machine is probably "a matter of tens of dollars". Why is it suddenly multiplicatively or exponentially more expensive? There's a lot of low-hanging fruit, and I'm focused on consumer duty cycles.

It's not a conspiracy when a product that is somewhat more expensive but lasts much longer per dollar doesn't sell well, but it is a market failure.

I think it if was clear at a glance that such a product lasts much longer, there'd be enough buyers to avoid the low-volume costs. At least in many markets for many kinds of product.

Re: The capacitor that Apple soldered incorrectly at the factory

#265

Post by Dylan16807 »

kube-system wrote: post #263
Dylan16807 wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you think people want 30 year old washing machines, you're kidding yourself. You say this in the same breath you talk about people being desperate for any cheapest appliance instead of having nothing? > And literally zero people are buying a house based on the bearings in the washing machine. Well that's them being dumb.

> You say this in the same breath you talk about people being desperate for any cheapest appliance instead of having nothing? Yes? I think you’re suggesting that the existence of old machines would be good for the poor. That’s true. However, manufacturers don’t make used machines. They only make new ones. So the forces of supply and demand do not apply. > Well that's them being dumb. Wat. No I’d say choosing a home b…

> Yes? I think you’re suggesting that the existence of old machines would be good for the poor. That’s true. However, manufacturers don’t make used machines. They only make new ones. So the forces of supply and demand do not apply.

As far as I can tell you were discounting the value of old machines, and suggesting long durability wasn't useful. I'm glad you agree they're useful.

And I know manufacturers make new machines. I'm suggesting that if the cheapest machines were much more durable at not-much higher prices, the end result would be better for everyone including the poor people that would otherwise have bought the even cheaper model.

(If we switched cold turkey it would be worse for them for a couple years before it got better. So let's not switch cold turkey. But that's not a reason to act like the current situation is anywhere near optimal. It's great that appliances have gotten massively cheaper than they used to be, but we could do even better.)

> Wat. No I’d say choosing a home based on location, school district, or inherent qualities of the home itself is a less dumb idea.

Wat. Do you think that's an either-or choice?

It's reasonable to say people choose a home based on price, right? If there's a washer and dryer as part of the package, the expected lifetime is basically an offset to the price.

Re: The capacitor that Apple soldered incorrectly at the factory

#266

Post by kube-system »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #264
kube-system wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I want to buy a version that cost 15% more to make. I don't want to buy a version that cost 3x as much to make (or is priced as if it does). Well, it just doesn't work that way. Premium components that truly extend product life are multiplicatively more expensive than what you'll find in value engineered products, if not exponentially so. Furthermore, a product that is 15% more expensive than competitors won't sell…

You are the one that came up with the 15% number. And you also said that the difference between a 5 year washing machine and a 30 year washing machine is probably "a matter of tens of dollars". Why is it suddenly multiplicatively or exponentially more expensive? There's a lot of low-hanging fruit, and I'm focused on consumer duty cycles. It's not a conspiracy when a product that is somewhat more expensive but lasts m…

The 15% number was in a different context in a different thread: "walking up to someone" in public, which presumably wouldn't be about an appliance because people keep those in their homes and don't walk around on the street with one. In that context I was thinking potentially a clothing accessory or something. Either way, the point in that thread didn't matter, because it wasn't about the number but about the socioeconomic impact of immediacy on quality of life. Doesn't matter if it was 10% or 1000%.

> And you also said that the difference between a 5 year washing machine and a 30 year washing machine is probably "a matter of tens of dollars". Why is it suddenly multiplicatively or exponentially more expensive?

You're conflating my statements about BOM costs and the final price of the product, which are two entirely different things. Demand is not a constant for your product at any price (because the market is likely elastic, and you have competitors). Demand will go down as price increases, often sharply. If you add tens of dollars in BOM cost, your product sells fewer units as a result, and now you have fewer units to spread the (potentially significant) fixed costs across. So, unfortunately the tens of dollars in BOM cost might mean hundreds in cost to the end consumer.

Re: The capacitor that Apple soldered incorrectly at the factory

#267

Post by kube-system »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #265
kube-system wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You say this in the same breath you talk about people being desperate for any cheapest appliance instead of having nothing? Yes? I think you’re suggesting that the existence of old machines would be good for the poor. That’s true. However, manufacturers don’t make used machines. They only make new ones. So the forces of supply and demand do not apply. > Well that's them being dumb. Wat. No I’d say choosing a home b…

> Yes? I think you’re suggesting that the existence of old machines would be good for the poor. That’s true. However, manufacturers don’t make used machines. They only make new ones. So the forces of supply and demand do not apply. As far as I can tell you were discounting the value of old machines, and suggesting long durability wasn't useful. I'm glad you agree they're useful. And I know manufacturers make new mach…

> Wat. Do you think that's an either-or choice?

Often worse -- in many markets a buyer will pick whichever available option has a plurality of their preferences. Most buyers are going to prioritize the location, size, and permanent qualities of the home, and that's going to narrow them down to a short-list of options. Major renovations tend to affect the price of a house somewhat, but the quality of individual appliances typically does not, because they are easily changed and account for maybe 1% of the value of a home. Even a home without appliances entirely will tend to sell just as fast and for prices similar to other homes.

Re: The capacitor that Apple soldered incorrectly at the factory

#268

Post by Dylan16807 »

kube-system wrote: post #266
Dylan16807 wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are the one that came up with the 15% number. And you also said that the difference between a 5 year washing machine and a 30 year washing machine is probably "a matter of tens of dollars". Why is it suddenly multiplicatively or exponentially more expensive? There's a lot of low-hanging fruit, and I'm focused on consumer duty cycles. It's not a conspiracy when a product that is somewhat more expensive but lasts m…

The 15% number was in a different context in a different thread: "walking up to someone" in public, which presumably wouldn't be about an appliance because people keep those in their homes and don't walk around on the street with one. In that context I was thinking potentially a clothing accessory or something. Either way, the point in that thread didn't matter, because it wasn't about the number but about the socioe…

I think if there was a way to see the quality the sales would not drop like that.

But if you insist they would, then we can talk about a world where that level of quality is the minimum. Somehow. I don't really care how. It would be better, yeah?

Re: The capacitor that Apple soldered incorrectly at the factory

#269

Post by klysm »

jopsen wrote: post #257
pokeymcsnatch wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voltage spikes from line inductance, voltage drop-outs from line resistance. Basically you have little reservoirs of charge scattered all around the board (current flow isn't instantaneous in a real circuit). It helps to always think of current draw in a compete loop, out the "top" of the capacitor, through your IC, and back into the ground side (this isn't necessarily what's happening physically). Shorter loop means…

Thanks, that makes no sense to me :) But I do recall having had inductance issues with high frequency transfers to an atmega. I have no idea how a capacitor would help. Sounds like it would increase a signal delay (tiny one perhaps). But definitely interesting, I'll need to learn about this if/when I dive further into electronics.

Decoupling can be used on signal lines, but we’re talking about power lines here. If you have something like an ATMega, it will change its power demands very frequently at high frequencies due to switching signals on and off. Without some additional capacitance on the board, the inductance will dominate at high frequencies. Inductance resists change in current, and you’ll get voltage drops.

Capacitance is in many ways the opposite of inductance. If you place capacitors close to the power sink (e.g. the ATMega), the traces will have lower inductance and be “decoupled” from the power supply.

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