Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

newsletter.weskao.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

261–270 of 346 posts

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#261

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #253
lijok wrote: post #6

Astonishing. Completely backwards. This article describes how to give feedback to your subordinates, not to your superiors. If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. If you find yourself working under such people, don't bother giving feedback, start poli…

>The reason you don't fluff feedback, or any information for that matter to your superiors, is described in basically every handbook on highly effective communication in organizations. This is the key assertion underlying your comment, yet you just wave it off by referring to unnamed "[handbooks] on highly effective communication in organizations". My no-fluff feedback for you: Your comment would've been far stronger…

I'm always curious when comment responders glom on to the least important part of a comment and dissect it to no end. I took "is described in basically every handbook on highly effective communication in organizations." as essentially "the standard for communication in effective organizations is to be direct and to the point." It did not warrant a "SOURCES??!!" response IMO because it wasn't saying anything that was uniquely attributable.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#262

Post by interludead »

flog wrote: post #4

This was one of the most exhausting aspects of working for a US company, especially as an H1B. Simply: just don't say anything, it wasn't worth it. I'm from cultures where we bluntly call a spade a spade and pride ourselves on disdain for hierarchy. There's far less fear in raising concerns generally to anyone, but it's quite possibly because of the far better employment laws.

This is why sometimes, "just don’t say anything" becomes the survival tactic - especially when the risk of speaking up feels like it outweighs any potential benefit

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#263

Post by loup-vaillant »

codr7 wrote: post #239
parpfish wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People can grow into their roles. You don’t expect junior devs to know everything one day one, so why would you expect a “junior[1]” manager? [1] I know the article is about senior managers, but it reads as though the mean “somebody more senior than me” and not “somebody who has been managing a long time”

The difference is the damage done. I don't think training managers on real people is a good idea.

Genuine question: how do we train managers, then? Surgeons have pigs, but even then it's not perfect, and there comes a point where they have to perform surgeries on actual humans (hopefully under supervision).

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#264

Post by navane »

0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #253
lijok wrote: post #6

Astonishing. Completely backwards. This article describes how to give feedback to your subordinates, not to your superiors. If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. If you find yourself working under such people, don't bother giving feedback, start poli…

>The reason you don't fluff feedback, or any information for that matter to your superiors, is described in basically every handbook on highly effective communication in organizations. This is the key assertion underlying your comment, yet you just wave it off by referring to unnamed "[handbooks] on highly effective communication in organizations". My no-fluff feedback for you: Your comment would've been far stronger…

Are you replying to your superior? He didn't say always no fluff, just that as a superior you should be able to handle it. That actually is the key assertion, the power imbalance direction.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#265

Post by vacuity »

bambax wrote: post #17

In aviation this is what Crew Resource Management is about, and in particular, how to make sure the monitoring pilot, who may be the least experienced one, can effectively supervise and review the actions of the other. Many crashes were the result of copilots' fear of speaking up. Business life could learn from this. The person in charge is not a king, they're simply the person tasked with making decisions. There is…

Even kings (nominally) have advisors and some level of contact with the people they rule over; they aren't expected to just make decisions from an empty room with exactly no room for being swayed. In theory, a good king is like that. A bad king, and similarly a bad business leader, shouldn't be used as exemplars though.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#266

Post by kstenerud »

palata wrote: post #42

In my 13 years of experience, I would say it's never worth giving feedback to your manager. Either they are good and it's useless, or they are not and they won't learn from you. I have come to a simple rule: if the manager is good, there is no problem. If the manager sucks (often that's because they lack experience, but it's all the same), just lie to them in order to preserve yourself. No need to have empathy for th…

Closing in on 30 years now.

The trick is to get into a company where the mission is sound, the direction makes sense, and your manager is good (i.e. protects you from above, and makes sure shit gets done in a timely and orderly fashion).

Then, help your manager out. Everyone has their flaws, bad situations etc. Be a true team member and help your manager out on those rare occasions where they really need it.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#267

Post by 0xDEAFBEAD »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #261
0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The reason you don't fluff feedback, or any information for that matter to your superiors, is described in basically every handbook on highly effective communication in organizations. This is the key assertion underlying your comment, yet you just wave it off by referring to unnamed "[handbooks] on highly effective communication in organizations". My no-fluff feedback for you: Your comment would've been far stronger…

I'm always curious when comment responders glom on to the least important part of a comment and dissect it to no end. I took "is described in basically every handbook on highly effective communication in organizations." as essentially "the standard for communication in effective organizations is to be direct and to the point." It did not warrant a "SOURCES??!!" response IMO because it wasn't saying anything that was…

The claim didn't ring true to me, based on what I've read about the topic in the past, or based on my personal thoughts and experiences. So I wanted a source. It should be easy to provide a source, if sources are as plentiful as lijok says.

>the standard for communication in effective organizations is to be direct and to the point.

Sounds very nice, but empirically humans often struggle with frank feedback. I think that goes for both subordinates and superiors, for different reasons.

I would argue it can be worthwhile to spend an additional 25% time to make it clear that it's nothing personal, to avoid risking a deterioration of your relationship.

Obviously, it's good to have friendly relations with your coworkers, including your boss.

If you have a high-trust relationship with your boss where there's no risk of deterioration, and you know your boss likes it when you speak your mind -- more power to you. Be direct and to the point.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#268

Post by svnt »

0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #254
0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The reason you don't fluff feedback, or any information for that matter to your superiors, is described in basically every handbook on highly effective communication in organizations. This is the key assertion underlying your comment, yet you just wave it off by referring to unnamed "[handbooks] on highly effective communication in organizations". My no-fluff feedback for you: Your comment would've been far stronger…

I was curious, so I used Perplexity.AI as a quick sanity check for lijok's comment. Here's the result: https://www.perplexity.ai/search/what-are-some-handbooks-on-... None of the books identified by Perplexity.AI appear to endorse lijok's claim. Of course, it could be a confabulation -- this is just a quick sanity check, to see if the claim is as manifestly true as lijok seems to think. (Putting this in a separate co…

Did you read the result you linked?

> Several handbooks on highly effective communication in organizations are:

1. “Winning” by Jack Welch and Suzy Welch, which emphasizes clear communication, open dialogue, and transparency in organizational success.

2. “Fierce Conversations” by Susan Scott, focusing on transforming everyday conversations at work to achieve success.

3. “Radical Candor” by Kim Scott, which promotes empathetic yet direct communication in professional settings.

In your reading of those titles and summaries, do they seem likely to recommend communicating layers of fluff to executives?

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#269

Post by 0xDEAFBEAD »

svnt wrote: post #268
0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was curious, so I used Perplexity.AI as a quick sanity check for lijok's comment. Here's the result: https://www.perplexity.ai/search/what-are-some-handbooks-on-... None of the books identified by Perplexity.AI appear to endorse lijok's claim. Of course, it could be a confabulation -- this is just a quick sanity check, to see if the claim is as manifestly true as lijok seems to think. (Putting this in a separate co…

Did you read the result you linked? > Several handbooks on highly effective communication in organizations are: 1. “Winning” by Jack Welch and Suzy Welch, which emphasizes clear communication, open dialogue, and transparency in organizational success. 2. “Fierce Conversations” by Susan Scott, focusing on transforming everyday conversations at work to achieve success. 3. “Radical Candor” by Kim Scott, which promotes e…

Scroll down to the 2nd question: "What advice do these books offer to a subordinate who wants to give feedback to their manager? What's their reasoning for the advice?"

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#270

Post by 0xDEAFBEAD »

dingnuts wrote: post #257
0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was curious, so I used Perplexity.AI as a quick sanity check for lijok's comment. Here's the result: https://www.perplexity.ai/search/what-are-some-handbooks-on-... None of the books identified by Perplexity.AI appear to endorse lijok's claim. Of course, it could be a confabulation -- this is just a quick sanity check, to see if the claim is as manifestly true as lijok seems to think. (Putting this in a separate co…

more like an insanity check. Did you ask the AI multiple times? usually if I ask a yes or no question and simply repeat the prompt a few times the model will tell me yes, no, and maybe, for any question.

Here's a link the AI cited, a LinkedIn post by the author of the book Radical Candor

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/kimm4_how-can-you-practice-sa...

>How can you practice safe Radical Candor with your boss?

>...

>Start by asking for feedback before you give it. You want to make sure you understand the you're boss's perspective before you start dishing out praise or criticism.

>...

>Tell your boss what you appreciate about them. This is not "kissing up." It's praise, which is an even more important part of Radical Candor than criticism.

>...

>Say something like, “Would it be helpful if I told you what I thought of X?”

>...

>If your boss says yes, start with something pretty small and benign and gauge how they react...

Post reply on HN