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Netflix Europe offices raided in tax fraud probe

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Re: Netflix Europe offices raided in tax fraud probe

#261
post #4

The meat: > Last year, French media outlet La Lettre reported that until 2021, Netflix in France minimised its tax payments by declaring its turnover generated in France to the Netherlands. > investigators are trying to determine whether Netflix continued to attempt to minimise its profits after 2021. Wasn't Uber or some other US company found doing something similar? First they were found to be in violation of some…

Yeah there's the so called "Dutch Sandwich"[1] which is a well-known tax "planning" methodology that corporates use with the so called "Double Irish" being another one. There's also a slightly less-well known one involving Mauritius and India. They're all ways of moving profits between companies in order to exploit tax treaties that countries put in place. In the case of the Dutch sandwich I think the Netherlands has…

None of these tax "planning" schemes are available anymore.

Moreover, tax authorities have increasingly taken the position that the use of these planning methods constitutes tax evasion. The Dutch Sandwich and Double Irish were grandfathered in (meaning, not treated as criminal tax evasion) but a company utilizing similar schemes today would ultimately result in one or more of their executives spending time in jail.

Critically, most of tax law is actually regulation that implements statutes. Tax planning schemes that satisfy the technical letter of regulations but which violate the plain intent of the written statute can, and have, been deemed illegal years or even decades later (see, for example, the Bermudan tax loss harvesting scheme), and this has repeatedly passed constitutional muster.

Re: Netflix Europe offices raided in tax fraud probe

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American surrounded by Superfund sites I would like some of these unnecessary restrictions and harassment by the state. The US is so beholden to private interests we can't even repair the roads or mandate healthcare without making it into a market.

[flagged]

>Do you know how the railroad infrastructure was built?

Abusing the heck out of immigrants and genociding the native people, I'm pretty sure. Also this (link is https://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/disp_textbook.cfm?smtID=2&...):

>Construction of the railroad provided many opportunities for financial chicanery, corruption, graft, and bribery. The greatest financial scandal of the 19th century grew out of the railroad's construction. The president of the Union Pacific helped found a construction company, called Credit Mobilier, which allowed investors, including several members of Congress, to grant lucrative construction contracts to themselves, while nearly bankrupting the railroad.

I don't think the corporation/government good/evil dichotomy you have made is so clean cut.

Re: Netflix Europe offices raided in tax fraud probe

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe this explains why the US is out ahead in GDP, income, and is doing much better pre and post covid than Europe. It's not so much breaking laws, but unnecessary restrictions and harassment by Europeans states. The US is business friendly. It's industry friendly. We don't needlessly harass the business of sovereign individuals, and the state apparatus isn't being used as an excuse as to exert power or influence ov…

You call a tax fraud investigation "needlessly harassing the business of sovereign individuals?" You're right, the U.S. is very business and industry friendly, which explains why the American people have been getting poorer and poorer while corporations and their shareholders get richer and richer.

The Average American is getting richer and richer, especially compared to European wage stagnation. I don’t think non-Americans understand how rich middle class americans are.

Re: Netflix Europe offices raided in tax fraud probe

#264

How about just get rid of double taxation in corporate taxes? Eventually, taxes will get paid via distributions or sale of stock by individuals.

Why not advocate for taxing only corporations, rather than the more oppressive direction of taxing only humans? Corporations intrinsically run on accounting report paperwork, meaning tax forms are an incremental cost rather than a novel burden. And they receive massive benefits from the state - liability protection, outsized access to the legal system, and often direct subsidies.

Because corporate taxes are paid on profit (revenue-expenses). So as a company I can claim a lot of stuff as a expenses. Executive salaries? Anything left after that? Lemme quickly create a separate company in some low tax jurisdiction and pay them for marketing expenses, and suddenly I have no profits, and nothing to tax. Regular people can't do that.

You also generally can't tax the revenue instead of profits (except perhaps few percent of revenue as the minimal tax), because different companies have hugely different amounts of revenue and expenses.

Re: Netflix Europe offices raided in tax fraud probe

#265
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a company is doing business here, the actual location of file is irrelevant. Also when the government is really motivated, he can arrested the founders or executives directly (Pavel Durov). Which is what they should do to Netflix execs if they are doing business illegally.

>Also when the government is really motivated, he can arrested the founders or executives directly (Pavel Durov). Which is what they should do to Netflix execs if they are doing business illegally. You're in favor of holding executives hostage to demand access to data? If they actually did something illegal, they can be arrested/tried for that, but arresting executives as a means to coerce companies into doing stuff…

What if it is illegal to withhold the data during an investigation? Isn't the executive then committing a crime?

Re: Netflix Europe offices raided in tax fraud probe

#266
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your analogy doesn’t work. Your neighbor is not you. $COMPANY is $COMPANY all around the world and if $COMPANY wants to do business in $COUNTRY (which is not an obligation, they choose to), then yes, they have to entirely cooperate with $COUNTRY. If they don’t want to, they can still do business elsewhere.

> $COMPANY is $COMPANY all around the world This is the thing which is not the case. The subsidiary in the US is nearly always a different company than the one(s) in Europe. They'll have different management and different lawyers etc. Sometimes they even have different owners, e.g. because one of them is a joint venture with some other company, or a franchise. And they have to be different, because different countrie…

In absolute, I agree with you. But personally if I had to chose between tax evasion (permitted by those schemes) and having less multinational companies because it’d be more difficult… well, my country was doing pretty okay before multinationals and is not doing okay since every taxes are evaded.

Well Netflix is nice and all but I prefer social security and teachers in school.

Re: Netflix Europe offices raided in tax fraud probe

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So my effective tax rate on consumption is indexed on my ability to hide my assets? Where are you getting this from? Sales tax has nothing to do with one's assets. Also, land value taxes make hiding assets moot, since all real assets have to be stored on land. Of course, copyright protections would need to be reformed to be for far shorter durations of time. >Maybe my household LLC should buy all my groceries while…

> Where are you getting this from? Sales tax has nothing to do with one's assets Earlier you said > And poorer people are automatically exempted from tax since the power law formula parameters be set to slowly ramp up I too am very confused on how you envision this sales tax working where it's variable in some way that poor people don't get the tax but rich people do so I understand why OP is asking about asset track…

>that poor people don't get the tax but rich people do

Because poor people can't spend money (since they don't have it), hence they pay much less (or even no tax). The curve of a power law formula can be modified to whatever is socially acceptable. Otherwise, rich people who are hoarding assets will get taxed via land value taxes utilizing the same framework.

>you've still got problems of hiding how much I'm spending through various legal entities.

Same with income tax. Completely stamping out tax evasion is not a realistic goal with any system. Also, various legal entities are all tied to beneficial owners with taxpayer ID numbers. Databases would make quick work of sorting this kind of stuff out.

>It also has a macro economic problem, at least how the consumer economy is structured, that could slow down the gears of business until society realigns (if it does) because people will be incentivized to consume less.

Yes, that is why it is a pipe dream. But it would actually accomplish environmental goals as opposed to just pay lip service and pretend.

>You've got alternative models where you go after specific products and tax more for conspicuous consumption like yachts but that feels like it has all the inefficiencies of central planning a market.

Completely unnecessary to complicate things which also opens up avenues for corruption. A yacht is super expensive, it's obviously going to be hit with a ton of tax. Just come up with a tax curve (like we already do with the various income tax deductions/brackets) that provides the tax revenue and still allows people to spend enough money to provide for their basic needs.

Re: Netflix Europe offices raided in tax fraud probe

#268
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> $COMPANY is $COMPANY all around the world This is the thing which is not the case. The subsidiary in the US is nearly always a different company than the one(s) in Europe. They'll have different management and different lawyers etc. Sometimes they even have different owners, e.g. because one of them is a joint venture with some other company, or a franchise. And they have to be different, because different countrie…

In absolute, I agree with you. But personally if I had to chose between tax evasion (permitted by those schemes) and having less multinational companies because it’d be more difficult… well, my country was doing pretty okay before multinationals and is not doing okay since every taxes are evaded. Well Netflix is nice and all but I prefer social security and teachers in school.

Federal revenue as a percent of GDP:

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFRGDA188S

Basically flat since the end of WWII, significantly lower before the war. At the height of the New Deal, less than half of what it is now. And that's in the face of significant growth in real GDP per capita. Probably not a dissimilar story in most other Western countries.

The problem isn't in the amount of taxes being collected, it's in where the money is going.

Re: Netflix Europe offices raided in tax fraud probe

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You call a tax fraud investigation "needlessly harassing the business of sovereign individuals?" You're right, the U.S. is very business and industry friendly, which explains why the American people have been getting poorer and poorer while corporations and their shareholders get richer and richer.

The Average American is getting richer and richer, especially compared to European wage stagnation. I don’t think non-Americans understand how rich middle class americans are.

Only 50% of Americans have Passports. 80% in Europe.

We understand it, because we travel there on, our paid, vacations.

My last time in America I went to San Francisco, lots of money, I have not seen a worst place to live in my life.

Americans don't understand the quality of life other places have.

Re: Netflix Europe offices raided in tax fraud probe

#270
post #54

I wonder how these "office raids" would work for remote first companies that don't have much of an office presence and with little or no physical documents and everything being stored in the cloud somewhere.

There was an interview with Anne Brorhilker, who used to be state's attorney and was investigating in CumEx cases. She stated that it is a huge pain, because you always need to ask the foreign agencies for assistance, which you sometimes simply won't get. It was a good listen. At first she needed to go empty handed, but then teamed up with competent tech guys. After that the smug faces stating, that the amount of dat…

Holy crap that’s an interesting interview. Genuinely hilarious comment from that CIO as well. I knew nothing about this case before. Thanks for sharing.
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