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New Mac Mini with M4

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Re: New Mac Mini with M4

#261
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple chips are among the most efficient out there for that sort of thing Not really? Apple is efficient because they ship moderately large GPUs manufactured on TSMC hardware. Their NPU hardware is more or less entirely ignored and their GPUs are using the same shader-based compute that Intel and AMD rely on. It's not efficient because Apple does anything different with their hardware like Nvidia does, it's efficie…

For inference, Apple chips are great due to a high memory bandwidth. Mac Studio is a popular choice in the local Llama community for this particular reason. It's a cost effective option if you need a lot of memory plus a high bandwidth. The downside is poor training performance and Metal being a less polished software stack compared to CUDA. I wonder if a little cluster of Mac Minis is a good option for running concu…

The memory bandwidth on Apple silicon is only sometimes comparable to, and in many cases worse than, that of a GPU. For example, an nVidia RTX 4060 Ti 16GB GPU (not a high-end card by any means) has memory bandwidth of 288GiB/sec, which is more than double that of the M4 CPU.

On the higher end, building a machine with 6 to 8 24GB GPUs such as RTX 3090s would be comparable in cost (as well as available memory) to a high-end Mac Studio, and would be at least an order of magnitude faster at inference. Yes, it's going to use an order of magnitude more power as well, but what you probably should care about here is W/token which is in the same ballpark.

Apple silicon is a reasonable solution for inference only if you need the most amount of memory possible, you don't care about absolute performance, and you're unwilling to deal with a multi-GPU setup.

Re: New Mac Mini with M4

#263
post #8

16GB base RAM across the board, following the iMac. AI is certainly good for pushing up the baseline RAM that manufacturers can get away with shipping if nothing else.

It's not just RAM. It's Unified RAM. So that memory is also used for the GPU & Neural Cores (which is for Apple Intelligence). This is actually why companies moved away from the unified memory arch decades ago. It'll be interesting to see as AI continues to advance, if Apple is forced to depart from their unified memory architecture due to growing GPU memory needs.

I think they moved away because system memory was lagging behind in speed to the memory being used on video cards?

And besides, what Apple is doing is placing the RAM really close to the SoC, I think they are on the same package even, that was not the case on the PC either AFAIK?

Re: New Mac Mini with M4

#264
post #181

16GB still seems tight in 2024

Depends on what you are doing? Our daughter has the original Mac Mini M1 with 8GiB, has a habit to keep everything (PowerPoint, Word, DTP, web browsers, etc.) open and the machine is still lightning-fast.

Developer that wants to run IntelliJ, a load of Docker containers, etc.? Sure, that's going to be tight, better get 32 or 64 GiB.

Remember that many Mac users are just folks that do web browsing, Office, and a bunch of other things and 16GiB is going to be enough for a few years.

Re: New Mac Mini with M4

#265
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't steamdeck a better option for this use case?

I have a Steam Deck, Asus ROG Ally, M2 Mac Mini, M1 Pro laptop, M2 Max laptop (work). All of this runs on either an LG C3 42" OLED or a 34" 1440p ultrawide. Linux GeForce Now can only do 720p or 1080p, can't remember which. Also, it's just kind of laggy in desktop mode. The Macs run so much smoother. My current "main" desktop is actually my Asus ROG Ally. I use one USB C hub that is capable of 4k120hz, and I can move…

can you share the USB C hub? i need one of these and can't find one that makes it easy to swap between mac & gaming rig

Re: New Mac Mini with M4

#266

Love to see that it still starts at $599. My M2 Mac Mini that I got for $499 is my favorite gaming computer I've had in a long time. Runs many games like WoW, Dota, League of Legends, etc great. Anything that it doesn't run due to MacOS I use GeForce Now over ethernet. And this was with 8gb unified memory, now with 16gb it'll be even better value. Very excited to see how the GPU has improved in the M4, especially the…

It’s smaller and has their own chip so I should hope it’s no more expensive.

Re: New Mac Mini with M4

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won’t ever be able run as fast as a soldered system. Have you installed a server CPU? It’s really easy to fuckup and lose a few channels of memory due to the contact being bad. Right now I’ve got a 3647 Xeon phi cpu that’s refusing to train dimm a1 for _reasons_ That’s not an experience Apple wants any user of their products to have. Here’s an example BGA socket: https://www.ironwoodelectronics.com/products/bga-so…

People running a single desktop machine are way better served by being able to upgrade RAM modules than worrying about single contacts being bad between the RAM stick and motherboard.

Yes? I wasn’t making a claim that it was better to solder everything for everyone. I’m saying the overlap between most Apple users and those people is low.

Re: New Mac Mini with M4

#269
Honestly a fantastic update for this machine. So much bang for your buck at the entry level now that they've FINALLY made 16GB of RAM the baseline. And fully specced out with M4 Pro + 64GB of Ram makes this a serious powerhouse in a tiny box. I love it.

I really want to see what they're going to do with the Studio this/next year. M4 Ultra could be insane.

Re: New Mac Mini with M4

#270
post #22
post #17

Having a fully fledged computer this small without an external power brick is pretty impressive.

Not making it VESA mountable is a missed opportunity, but I suppose they want you to buy an iMac instead of doing that.

No surprise there; even their monitors’ VESA mounts are optional :D
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