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We're forking Flutter

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Re: We're forking Flutter

#261

Post by xmprt »

giancarlostoro wrote: post #99
izacus wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a bizarre comparison, WhatsApp engineers didn't have to review code for millions of users.

How is it bizarre to compare the impact of a low number of engineers affecting millions of people. In the case of WhatsApp it was 35 engineers affecting 350 million people. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39447564

The support needs of developers is generally higher than those of a messaging user. How often have you had to contact the support of a messaging app you use? Now think about how often you create a Github issue or PR for an open source repo.

Re: We're forking Flutter

#262

Post by sterlind »

devjab wrote: post #183
sterlind wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

to be fair, Python's performance has lagged far behind comparable languages (e.g. JS) for at least a decade. maybe more devs could give it the V8 treatment?

I’m not sure what you mean by this but Python can be very performant when you want it to be. That is to say, when you build computation heavy parts in C (or Zig), and remember to avoid the various performance pitfalls like not using generators when you didn’t want to load all those millions of elements into your memory. What sets professional Python aside from most other programming languages is that everyone who use…

Here's one source on Python very obviously not matching Node.js's perf on a simple microbenchmark: https://jott.live/markdown/nodejs_vs_python_

CPython really is inherently less performant than V8. CPython, until very recently, didn't have a JIT at all. It compiles scripts to bytecode, then runs the bytecode in a giant case statement. It doesn't have a tracing profiler-guided optimizer or an exotic garbage collector. CPython is way, way simpler than V8, but it's consequently slower. It's just the consequence of Google putting centuries of developer-years into an engine.

You can't just claim Python is fast because Python's C libraries are fast. Those libraries are fast despite Python. Torch is extremely fast, but it's fast from C and Lua too. There's valid reasons to want to compute in your programming language. Python is, ironically, probably popular because its slow speed encouraged users to write blazing fast C libraries rather than even try writing native Python, vs. settling for middling performance as in Java or .NET.

I shouldn't have to get out my hammer and tongs when NumPy doesn't implement the operator I need. Why can't Python be fast like Julia?

Re: We're forking Flutter

#263

Post by hadad »

normie3000 wrote: post #19
justmarc wrote: post #8

Flutter is truly a piece of great tech with remarkable quality and value. I hope the right path will be found. I think companies using it for commercial purposes (like what we're doing) should contribute something to the effort to help make sure Flutter not only survives, but flourishes. Bug bounties, supporting individual developers, supporting efforts and initiatives, professional services, or any other way that he…

> Flutter is truly a piece of great tech with remarkable quality and value. How does it compare to React Native from user and developer experience perspectives? Are there other competitors?

For xplat is same concept, compile to native code on multiple target system.

The other xplat framework same as Flutter:

- React Native

- Kotlin Multiplatform

- NET MAUI

- NativeScript

- Slint

Re: We're forking Flutter

#264

Post by stux »

https://github.com/flutter/flutter/pulls?q=is%3Apr+author%3A...

- 0 open PRs

- 2 PRs merged, 1 PR closed in the past 4 years

- All PRs reviewed by a member of the Flutter team within 24hrs

- [“If I'm still supposed to write tests, even for this change, then this is probably as far as I take the PR.”](https://github.com/flutter/flutter/pull/128910#issuecomment-...)

- 40+ PRs from 2019

So, disgruntled ex-employee?

Re: We're forking Flutter

#265

Post by wiseowise »

1propionyl wrote: post #134
divan wrote: post #120

> We describe Flock as "Flutter+". In other words, we do not want, or intend, to fork the Flutter community. Flock will remain constantly up to date with Flutter. That was the first fear when I saw the title - splitting community and having two incompatible versions. Good to see it addressed in the post. The second was just a fear of how it would complicate the development process, but it seems to be a drop-in replac…

Flutter is really not some big revelation and it's always shocking to me how it's evangelists act like it's the game changer no one else has noticed. It's just not that good? Just build native UIs. I don't know why cross platform UI has been such a hobbyhorse for so many for so long: it's a stupid idea.

> I don't know why cross platform UI has been such a hobbyhorse for so many for so long: it's a stupid idea.

You suggest to build and maintain same logic in at least C#/C++ + Swift + Kotlin + JS + C++ and you ask why crossplatform UI is a popular idea?

Re: We're forking Flutter

#266

Post by skydhash »

Onavo wrote: post #221
divan wrote: post #120

> We describe Flock as "Flutter+". In other words, we do not want, or intend, to fork the Flutter community. Flock will remain constantly up to date with Flutter. That was the first fear when I saw the title - splitting community and having two incompatible versions. Good to see it addressed in the post. The second was just a fear of how it would complicate the development process, but it seems to be a drop-in replac…

> Most people don't realize how many apps written in Flutter they use daily, simply because it's impossible to tell. Flutter implemented its "native" looking UI widgets by literally having teams of designers eyeball the native designs and reimplementing, starting from drawPixel. This can't be done on a volunteer basis alone. Many open source attempts have tried this route and failed because they don't have the sheer…

I’d much prefer they’ve gone with their own design system. People are already used to bespoke ones (web), badly done ones just remind me of scammy sites.

Re: We're forking Flutter

#267

Post by ignoramous »

bobthepanda wrote: post #255
ignoramous wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gotcha. To use "Founder" then seems like a weird choice? I guess, I must catch up to the changing meanings of words used in SV.

founder is a word that exists outside the context of SV and has never exclusively been the domain of startups.

Guess you're right. Establishing a "Flutter org" counts. Though, I've never seen folks in this space (Bjarne Stroustrup or Anders Heljsberg for example) say they're the "Founder" of XYZ language / framework.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/founder (n)

  someone who establishes an organization

Re: We're forking Flutter

#268

Post by [deleted] »

divan wrote: post #120

> We describe Flock as "Flutter+". In other words, we do not want, or intend, to fork the Flutter community. Flock will remain constantly up to date with Flutter. That was the first fear when I saw the title - splitting community and having two incompatible versions. Good to see it addressed in the post. The second was just a fear of how it would complicate the development process, but it seems to be a drop-in replac…

[deleted]

Re: We're forking Flutter

#269

Post by ForHackernews »

deergomoo wrote: post #215
divan wrote: post #120

> We describe Flock as "Flutter+". In other words, we do not want, or intend, to fork the Flutter community. Flock will remain constantly up to date with Flutter. That was the first fear when I saw the title - splitting community and having two incompatible versions. Good to see it addressed in the post. The second was just a fear of how it would complicate the development process, but it seems to be a drop-in replac…

> Most people don't realize how many apps written in Flutter they use daily, simply because it's impossible to tell You can't be serious. Maybe on Android, but on other platforms—especially iOS—they stick out like a sore thumb. A number of them just look like Material Design Android apps awkwardly transplanted over, but I know that's down to the developer so I won't hold that against Flutter. But scrolling through th…

I miss the days when applications had their own look and feel. If your idea of great design is identical rectangles to all the other apps, I guess Winforms solved that use case 20 years go.

Re: We're forking Flutter

#270

Post by divan »

8338550bff96 wrote: post #257
divan wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flutter showcase is a disgrace, to be honest. Doesn't represent the actual landscape even remotely.

That is good to hear and hopefully gets fixed. It has been some years now, but I did use flutter for some toy projects and liked using it - I am used to using ReactJS I found there was a lot of transitive knowledge coming from that background. Ultimately what dissuaded me from pursuing it for any bigger projects is a lack of examples of great looking production apps with complex requirements. When I was looking, I wa…

I don't know how to fix the showcase problem. With web apps, it's easy – just scan HTML, deduce what framework is used, and add it to your showcase list. With Flutter mobile/desktop apps it's not possible. And there are zero incentives for developers to send their apps for screenshots. You just ship the release and move on to the next tasks.

I also discovered Flutter in 2018, and it kind brought joy into UI programming for me. I rewrote all web apps I had with Flutter and published a bunch of mobile apps, but the coolest thing is that I routinely make apps for my own (or my team's) use.

For me, Flutter lowered the costs of UI app development so much that I could just spend a weekend making some neat, small, practical tool for my own needs. I really love making these "private" apps – no need to care about all corner cases for all users, no need to polish design for all screen sizes/font sizes. Don't even need to be released (TestFlight at max, if doing it for a team). It's just fun, and I wish more developers could have the same experience.

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