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Is population density the reason Americans can't discuss politics?

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Re: Is population density the reason Americans can't discuss politics?

#261

Post by bongoman42 »

caeril wrote: post #247
marxisttemp wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it? Is it really hard to tell? This isn’t about what you’ve “heard from both sides”. Which actual rights is the left seeking to take away that would make you so confused about which side is being referred to?

Yes, it's hard to tell if you're capable of objectively viewing the absurdity of modern politics. The left is very clearly attempting to curtail the right to free speech, free association, and economic freedom. The right is very clearly attempting to curtail the reproductive rights of women, and freedom of movement across borders. Sure, if you're inured to the "my side is angelic, and the other side is evil", it's ea…

This is actually a good breakdown of the two sides. There is an additional thing that the divergence between the people at the top of the two parties and their respective bases is far larger in the case of the left. And the inclusivity of the left has brought together several groups that are highly antithetical to each other and makes for far less predictable and unstable leadership.

Re: Is population density the reason Americans can't discuss politics?

#262

Post by marxisttemp »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #249
marxisttemp wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> listen to someone explain why they think trans people aren’t humans with complex interior lives who mostly want to be left alone Honestly, yea. Because here’s the wild thing: they’re not crazy. Or at least, they’re no crazier than the ostensibly-tolerant New Yorkers who have all kinds of misconceptions about a separate portfolio of characteristics. They’re also a significant fraction of voters. So if trans rights a…

okay. I grew up on a farm in Maine btw, I can guarantee I have more interaction with Trump voters than you. My own brother has swallowed the anti trans propaganda. I’ve heard all the tired, hateful arguments they make but have fun wasting your time listening to both sides

Re: Is population density the reason Americans can't discuss politics?

#263

Post by marxisttemp »

caeril wrote: post #247
marxisttemp wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it? Is it really hard to tell? This isn’t about what you’ve “heard from both sides”. Which actual rights is the left seeking to take away that would make you so confused about which side is being referred to?

Yes, it's hard to tell if you're capable of objectively viewing the absurdity of modern politics. The left is very clearly attempting to curtail the right to free speech, free association, and economic freedom. The right is very clearly attempting to curtail the reproductive rights of women, and freedom of movement across borders. Sure, if you're inured to the "my side is angelic, and the other side is evil", it's ea…

> The left is very clearly attempting to curtail the right to free speech

How?

> free association,

How?

> and economic freedom.

How?

Re: Is population density the reason Americans can't discuss politics?

#265

Post by danaris »

rightbyte wrote: post #260
danaris wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this position is that politics in the current situation are not just about minor details of tax policy or whether to build a bridge here or five miles away there . They are an existential matter for too many people. When the issue at hand is something like "I think black people deserve the same rights as white people," no, no one is ever going to convince me of the opposite. There is literally no poi…

I think it might be benifitial to not assume one self is the good guy. It doesn't work on a macro level to assume that. You could change black and white to Palestinian and Israeli and suddenly most of these 'I would never' would have a very nuanced view on the matter. But, as I agreed, there is a limit on stamina to discuss with the outmost fringe people.

I don't assume I'm the good guy. I strive, every day, to be good, and to become better.

And yes, the issue of Palestinian rights in Israel, in particular, is extremely thorny, which I presume is why you picked it. There are extremes on both sides—both of which are very real positions that very real people are taking today, neither of which is supportable—and there are shades of gray in the middle, and if I had an answer to that question that didn't raise 100 more, I'd probably have already won the Nobel Peace Prize.

But there are plenty of people in the US who would genuinely try to argue that black people don't deserve the same rights as white people, and unless you are one of them, I think you're likely to agree that that is not a thorny issue: there's a very clear right and wrong answer. It's not conceptually analogous to the situation in the Middle East, even though the words sound similar.

The existence of hard moral questions without easy answers does not negate the existence of moral questions with very obvious answers that a large number of people are nonetheless very obviously on the wrong side of.

Re: Is population density the reason Americans can't discuss politics?

#266

Post by jmyeet »

cherrycherry98 wrote: post #252
jmyeet wrote: post #91

No. Kurt Lewin is viewed by many as the father of social psychology [1], who made a name for himself particularly with studying the social dynamics that allowed the HOlocaust to happen, the psychology of obedience. What allowed otherwise ordinary people to go along with such horrors has been studied ever since. I believe MAGA will be studied in similar terms for similar reasons for decades to come as researchers will…

You are trying to draw a parallel between mass deportation and genocide that I do find valid. Rounding up people for deportation may be considered a violent act but not nearly to the degree of intentional mass murder. Also alluding that migrant internment camps (which would be temporary holding facilities for deportees) would be like something akin to Auschwitz (an actual industrialized mass murder facility) feels li…

> You are trying to draw a parallel between mass deportation and genocide that I do find valid.

Consider the 10 stages of genocide [1]. The anti-immigration hysteria is probably at stage 6 at this point.

> The law defines the process for legal immigration and many people have broken the law.

There are many categories of so-called "undocumented" migrants and you have to consider each group. Anti-immigration rhetoric from the American right lumps up several groups of documented migrants into the "undocumented" category, including TPS recipients (such as the Haitians in Springfield, OH) and DACA recipients. It's worth considering who DACA recipients are. If someone was brought to the US at 5 months old, they clearly didn't choose to break the law. They likely have never been to their country of birth. They may not even speak the language. In most cases it's utterly inhumane and immoral to deport such a person and if you explain it to people, they will tend to agree.

> Illegal immigration is not a victimless crime.

This is where we get into right-wing propaganda.

> Housing costs are driven up

False [2].

> labor costs down for the most vulnerable in society

Actually undocumented migrants are largely doing jobs nobody else will do. If we snapped our fingers and tomorrow all the undocumented migrants were removed from the US, the agricultural industry would collapse. How do I know this? Because we have data to support it.

So if you really wanted to tackle undocumented migrants, who would you go after, the employee or the employer? Almost always they go after the employer. Undocumented migrants are openly employed in every state. Alabama tried this and it was a disaster [3]. So did Florida [4].

As for driving down wages, the best way to tackle this is to document them. We used to do this with temporary workers aka the Bracero program [5].

If you really want to see how exploitation of undocumented migrants and wage suppression works, look at the chicken producers. Pretty much everyone is undocumented and underpaid. What happens when they start to demand more wages? The chicken farms call in an ICE raid, pay a slap-on-the-wrist fine and rinse and repeat.

The wealthy love undocumented migrants because it keeps wages low and increases profits.

> It strains local resources

Undocumented migrants pay about $100 billion in taxes per year [6].

> Unvetted criminals or gang members entering pose a threat to public safety.

The "migrant crime" hysteria doesn't survive the simplest of Google searches. How many homicide convictions were there in 2023? 20,400. How many of them were committed by noncitizens (note: this includes documented migrants)? 29 [7].

Undocumented migrants are overwhelmingly people simply seeking safety and security. Perhaps we should stop destabilizing the countries they come from like Venezuela.

This is a completely manufactured non-problem based on objective lies.

[1]: https://www.hmd.org.uk/learn-about-the-holocaust-and-genocid...

[2]: https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/housing-prices-f...

[3]: https://www.americanprogress.org/article/alabamas-immigratio...

[4]: https://civileats.com/2024/02/07/a-florida-immigration-law-i...

[5]: https://guides.loc.gov/latinx-civil-rights/bracero-program

[6]: https://itep.org/undocumented-immigrants-taxes-2024/

[7]: https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/cbp-enforcement-statistic...

Re: Is population density the reason Americans can't discuss politics?

#267

Post by locopati »

bongoman42 wrote: post #220
nataliste wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is precisely why people, not just Americans, can't disagree about politics over time. Politics always turns into someone having the perspective "civil disagreement cannot be tolerated because the stakes are too high for my side" which is anethema to reason and concord regardless of whether it's actually true or not. Catastrophizing is always incentivized in the immediate term because it forces any interlocut…

This. I've had conversations with PhD folks who are genuinely afraid Trump getting elected will mean their naturalized citizenships will be reversed and they'll be deported. I've had conversations with gay Americans who asked me if they should consider moving to Canada because Trump may remove recognition for gay marriages. Both of these positions are so far out of the likelihood of things that may happen that there…

What reason do you think it's unlikely? He's talked about it. The Supreme Court has talked about it. The Republican party has talked about it.

Re: Is population density the reason Americans can't discuss politics?

#268

Post by olalonde »

KittenInABox wrote: post #238
olalonde wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, no I hadn't. It's a bit like how criminals find ways to justify their crimes. Some people have very flexible morality.

Simply put, condemnation is easy when it isn't you.

Indeed.

Re: Is population density the reason Americans can't discuss politics?

#269

Post by JumpCrisscross »

marxisttemp wrote: post #262
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> listen to someone explain why they think trans people aren’t humans with complex interior lives who mostly want to be left alone Honestly, yea. Because here’s the wild thing: they’re not crazy. Or at least, they’re no crazier than the ostensibly-tolerant New Yorkers who have all kinds of misconceptions about a separate portfolio of characteristics. They’re also a significant fraction of voters. So if trans rights a…

okay. I grew up on a farm in Maine btw, I can guarantee I have more interaction with Trump voters than you. My own brother has swallowed the anti trans propaganda. I’ve heard all the tired, hateful arguments they make but have fun wasting your time listening to both sides

> grew up on a farm in Maine btw, I can guarantee I have more interaction with Trump voters than you

I raise you rural Wyoming, Arizona and the California Indian-American community.

> own brother has swallowed the anti trans propaganda. I’ve heard all the tired, hateful arguments they make

Sure. Then there is nothing more to be learned from them—listening doesn’t imply listening infinitely.

Most people never get to step one. They have a totem of the other side’s fears and arguments (or collapse the issue into a false dichotomy). I certainly don’t understand how what should be a niche, private issue became so relatable to so many in this way. (And I suspect those who see trans people as another colour of human being don’t either. Or we’d be able to address it.)

Re: Is population density the reason Americans can't discuss politics?

#270

Post by bongoman42 »

locopati wrote: post #267
bongoman42 wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I've had conversations with PhD folks who are genuinely afraid Trump getting elected will mean their naturalized citizenships will be reversed and they'll be deported. I've had conversations with gay Americans who asked me if they should consider moving to Canada because Trump may remove recognition for gay marriages. Both of these positions are so far out of the likelihood of things that may happen that there…

What reason do you think it's unlikely? He's talked about it. The Supreme Court has talked about it. The Republican party has talked about it.

Talked about what? Trump was in power for 4 years, neither of those things came even close to happening. Trump has explicitly said he wants more legal immigration. He has said he wants to stamp Green Cards on everyone graduating from a US college. Vance has explicitly said they're not looking to break up loving families.
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