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So thieves broke into your storage unit again

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Re: So thieves broke into your storage unit again

#261

Post by tshaddox »

jart wrote: post #258
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An owner on the other hand has their incentives aligned with both the space itself and its future This is absolutely not reflected in the history of resource extraction in the United States. Time and time again, companies have become owners, begged to be trusted because their interests are "aligned", only to destroy the resource, and frequently the communities around it, and then move on. The version of game theory…

Could you give me three examples of what you're talking about? Are you saying like someone owns a coal mine and destroys the coal because they dug it up and sold it? Or do you mean more like they blew up the mountain to get the coal, to save money, so now the mountainside is less picturesque?

How about Superfund sites, where the owners didn’t just remove valuable resources, but actively added and then left behind hazardous materials which are now the responsibility of the taxpayer?

Re: So thieves broke into your storage unit again

#262

Post by jart »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #254
jart wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw what that type of community management looks like at Occupy Wall Street. No thank you. Yes, it was people like Bloomberg who were scheming to bus criminals into the park. But if that weakness hadn't existed he would have never been able to exploit it.

There are literally hundreds if not thousands of examples of community managed resources throughout time and space that are more long lasting and more positive than Occupy. Just in the part of the world where I live, but inherited from the Arabic world via Spain, are the acequias of New Mexico. Contrary to US law, they hold water to be a communical resource, and are managed at the community level, typically with an i…

Is that where your drinking water comes from? Only a monster or a foreign invader would poison a drinking well.

Re: So thieves broke into your storage unit again

#264

Post by kotaKat »

jwagenet wrote: post #152
bodyfour wrote: post #38

What is annoying to me is that in this internet-connected age, the storage units I see still don't have better per-unit security. Just a phone alert to say "door to unit #xyz has been opened" would be a huge improvement. Wire up a cheap webcam for extra credit.

I’m pretty sure most large storage operations (U-Haul, extra space, etc) have per unit door sensors which work in concert with customer check in/out to verify authorized openings.

Yup! My local U-Haul has a sign in/out system. In the main office there's a monitor/giant TV that shows a map of the facility, including alerts for all doors currently open and authorized.

https://s3-media0.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/K_IeKTxlLTzLBd4F9Ett...

If I don't sign in, as soon as I try to roll my door up the alarms are going to go off. If I don't sign out after closing the door and leaving, the next time I try to sign in I will be denied entry until I speak to a manager and be yelled at about signing out when I leave.

Re: So thieves broke into your storage unit again

#265

Post by jart »

tshaddox wrote: post #261
jart wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you give me three examples of what you're talking about? Are you saying like someone owns a coal mine and destroys the coal because they dug it up and sold it? Or do you mean more like they blew up the mountain to get the coal, to save money, so now the mountainside is less picturesque?

How about Superfund sites, where the owners didn’t just remove valuable resources, but actively added and then left behind hazardous materials which are now the responsibility of the taxpayer?

I'm not sure what can be done when land is worth less than the cost of cleaning it. I'm sure technology will be available in the future that makes it economical. Especially as land grows more scarce.

Re: So thieves broke into your storage unit again

#266

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

MichaelZuo wrote: post #260
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're omitting is that the solutions to ToC style problems already existed throughout time and space until they were ignored/destroyed/captured by selfishness and greed . Think about it: if I set you the challenge of "come up with a regulation model for this fishery" the nature of your solutions will be fundamentally different than if I set you the challenge of "prevent selfishness and greed from overriding the…

Why do they qualify as ‘solutions’ in the first place, if the ‘solution’ cannot withstand some percentage of people pursuing self interest above all else? (Which has always been the case to varying degrees since the first organized polities arose ~5k to ~10k years ago) It sounds more like a hodgepodge of brittle norms.

If you (as a culture) manage to successfully run a fishery for 500 years and then someone invents capitalism and yourexisting mechanisms can't withstand the new morality and motives it endorses and encourages ... I am not sure that you've failed.

Re: So thieves broke into your storage unit again

#267

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

jart wrote: post #258
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An owner on the other hand has their incentives aligned with both the space itself and its future This is absolutely not reflected in the history of resource extraction in the United States. Time and time again, companies have become owners, begged to be trusted because their interests are "aligned", only to destroy the resource, and frequently the communities around it, and then move on. The version of game theory…

Could you give me three examples of what you're talking about? Are you saying like someone owns a coal mine and destroys the coal because they dug it up and sold it? Or do you mean more like they blew up the mountain to get the coal, to save money, so now the mountainside is less picturesque?

1. the forests. I know most about the ones in the pacific northwest. wherever there has been private ownership (and sometimes where there has not) by a corporate entity, the forest productivity has declined (sometimes to zero)

2. mining. The owners care only about what's in the ground, not what's above it, and so there are repeated cases of them poisoning waterways and the rest of whatever is downstream because they actually have no incentive to preserve the land itself. [ Note: this really covers multiple resource extraction industries, but I'll leave it as just one example for now ]

3. topsoil. Farms across the country have been losing topsoil for more than a century. Despite the long term implications of this being acknowledged by everyone involved, practices to stop it from happening are limited, and generally constrainted to non-corporate, non-vertically-integrated farmers.

Re: So thieves broke into your storage unit again

#268

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

jart wrote: post #262
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are literally hundreds if not thousands of examples of community managed resources throughout time and space that are more long lasting and more positive than Occupy. Just in the part of the world where I live, but inherited from the Arabic world via Spain, are the acequias of New Mexico. Contrary to US law, they hold water to be a communical resource, and are managed at the community level, typically with an i…

Is that where your drinking water comes from? Only a monster or a foreign invader would poison a drinking well.

The water in this part of the world all comes from the same sources (wells, some surface sources, rain). The problem is not poison, but supply (i.e. overuse).

Re: So thieves broke into your storage unit again

#269

Post by irrational »

ebiester wrote: post #207
istjohn wrote: post #159

The storage unit industry is one of the most awful, customer hostile industries I've encountered. It's impossible to get the local facility on the phone, publicly listed phone numbers are all redirected to a national call center where reps are unable to even accurately quote prices. TFA covers the insurance kickback scam. Then after I moved into my unit, I discovered 75% of the units in my facility could be broken in…

I think there are three use cases: 1. You are temporarily moving to a place outside your local area, or to a much smaller place. I was moving around for a year and a half, so I left my furniture and non-valuables in a storage unit until I would be settled again. 2. You live in a small unit in a big city. $100-$150 for an extra 50 square feet a month might be cheaper than the equivalent space and is a great choice for…

4. You are a hoarder and have run out of room at home (I knew a hoarder with multiple storage units for this exact reason).

5. You are trying to hide things from your spouse.

Re: So thieves broke into your storage unit again

#270

Post by sokoloff »

crazygringo wrote: post #221
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you go and study the actual history of fishing territories, it invariably turns out that they all came/come with complex systems for managing yields. There wasn't ever "a big sea full of fish and anyone could just do whatever they want". For example, if you catch fish with impunity because there is nobody at sea to stop you, you still need to sell them which means interacting the people (in some way) close to wher…

I guess I don't understand your motive in what you call a "subtle shift" of trying to redefine away the concept of the tragedy of the commons. You say 'There wasn't ever "a big sea full of fish and anyone could just do whatever they want".' But to the contrary, that's basically always been the case. Fishing boats were limited by technology and the size of their local markets, but once those limitations disappeared be…

Whaling (especially that done for oil rather than meat) seems to be another example that seems a pretty clear-cut case (IMO).

Or the catching of live tortoises to use as meat on long sea voyages.

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