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Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

theguardian.com

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Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#261

Post by Terretta »

dumbo-octopus wrote: post #173
canjobear wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re looking for objective measures, aphantasia correlates inversely with objective measures of visual memory. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7856239/ But you can also imagine tests based on introspection which are better than just straight up asking how vivid your mental imagery is. For example: imagine a triangle. What color is it? For a true aphantasiac, this question is meaningless. It has no c…

For the test to be meaningful, it should still produce accurate results when the subject is pretending to have the condition (the SAT wouldn’t be helpful if you could ace it by acting as if you know the all answers!) Consider a turing test of sorts: I want to convince you I am phantastic, you are tasked with determining whether I am faking it. Could such a test be realized? Consider, for example, the “draw a bicycle”…

> Many aphants on the other hand have no issue depicting a well formed bicycle onto a paper, and furthermore would be able to identify faulty ones.

As one, I don't draw, I construct. A set of rules make a bicycle a bicycle, so pick a part, draw it, then sequentially continue attaching parts per the rules, and at the end, it's a valid bicycle that functions. The resultant drawing is considered good, though I couldn't "see" any part of the bicycle before or while drawing.

This isn't from an image, but it is arguably a mapping.

Similarly, I've observed those who can mentally organize concepts but can't visualize pictures are often better able to render frameworks onto whiteboards than those who picture scenes.

It's made me wonder if the same parts of the mind are used for the one or the other, as if remembering everything visually uses up circuitry that could support semantic-space-time.

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#262

Post by MichaelRo »

Until we can probe into people's minds (some advanced MRI or something in the future) and display them on a computer screen, there's no way to call bullshit on people who claim they can "see" the apple, you only have your subjective experience for that.

And I don't believe for a second they "see" in the real sense, again, because I don't see anything. Only time I really see is in my dreams. So rather, ask people "do you see the apple just like you see it in your dreams?" I bet they don't.

Or funk knows, again I repeat, I only have my sensory experience to relate to and there's no visual element in it when I close my eyes.

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#263

Post by dinkleberg »

Throw_Away_1049 wrote: post #255
perrygeo wrote: post #68

There seems to be a higher-than-average incidence of Aphantasia in tech folks, at least as self-reported. Our visual cortex is a huge part of our brain and in the absence of visual input can be "rewired" to other purposes. Theory: I have no evidence for this but its plausible that our obsession with solving hard, abstract logic puzzles all day (and night) somehow hijacks part of our visual cortex. Effectively reprogr…

I asked a non-tech loved one right now and she doesn’t see anything either. I almost suspect people are claiming they “see” things when they don’t and it’s just a deep understanding of what something looks like.

While certainly some of that does happen. The language around visualization is complicated. But we know that there are people who have no ability to think in language and have no internal monologue, whereas others can do so strongly. Given how much variability there is in everything else with the brain, it would be rather strange that it isn't also true of visualization.

After all, everything we experience is our brains' interpretation of our sensory inputs. And if we can visually experience things that don't exist, whether through dreams or hallucinations (drug induced or otherwise), it stands to reason that if your mind knows how to control those same pathways you could create images in your mind.

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#264

Post by carapace »

Of course they can picture things in their mind, that's how they see.

To explain the not-joke: the things you see are not "out there" they are in your mind. Now of course the things you see through your eyes are there, but the images are imaginary, the eye and brain do all kinds of things between the retina and the mind to make the imagery you see. Your visual perception is constructive.

Metaphorically speaking, the camera works, these folks just don't know how to hit "play" on the tape. They have the neural "circuitry" to visualize in their minds (or they would be blind!) they just aren't using it.

> Think you of the fact that a deaf person cannot hear. Then, what deafness may we not all possess? What senses do we lack that we cannot see and cannot hear another world all around us?

Learn to use your brain folks. It's the most sophisticated computer in the known Universe and you can learn to operate it.

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#265

Post by uclibc »

jackjeff wrote: post #205
uclibc wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the GP, but I can. I can play back songs in my head quite vividly or remember and replay how different people sound like, when it's coupled with a memory.

Not the GP either I can’t do any of that. Sound is like images for me. An abstract concept you can reason about later but only experience in the moment.

Can you hear your own thoughts when thinking in sentences? If not what does thinking a sentence through feel like?

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#266

Post by postalrat »

MichaelRo wrote: post #262

Until we can probe into people's minds (some advanced MRI or something in the future) and display them on a computer screen, there's no way to call bullshit on people who claim they can "see" the apple, you only have your subjective experience for that. And I don't believe for a second they "see" in the real sense, again, because I don't see anything. Only time I really see is in my dreams. So rather, ask people "do…

I used to do tech support before remote desktop became easy. When talking people though screens I had to do a lot of visualization of what I thought they were seeing so I could explain what to do next. Was it like a dream? Sometimes pretty close but just a computer screen.

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#268

Post by trescenzi »

MichaelRo wrote: post #262

Until we can probe into people's minds (some advanced MRI or something in the future) and display them on a computer screen, there's no way to call bullshit on people who claim they can "see" the apple, you only have your subjective experience for that. And I don't believe for a second they "see" in the real sense, again, because I don't see anything. Only time I really see is in my dreams. So rather, ask people "do…

There are some studies which do show differences in neural activation across people who describe subjective differences in visualization.

2023: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.06.14.544909v4 2021: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8186241/ 2017: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001094521...

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#269

Post by kemiller »

harimau777 wrote: post #258

I've sometimes wondered if I could have aphantasia or perhaps be low enough on the visual imagery spectrum to have some of the practical effects of aphantasia. When I try to visualize an object, I can in some sense visualize it but it feels very indistinct. It's like I can't see the object as a whole only the specific details I focus on. For example, I have a friend who wears circular glasses and has a handlebar must…

Yeah I’m exactly the same. It’s like I can “visualize” my proprioceptive sense for where things are in space but it’s more like a lidar map.
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