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Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

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Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#261

Post by tptacek »

cjbgkagh wrote: post #252
tptacek wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ahh, I'm looking at a much more recent case in New Jersey, not this one from 10 years ago. The test you're talking about isn't an IQ test; it's a heavily and obviously culturally-loaded literacy test. The whole point of actual IQ tests is to isolate intellectual aptitude from cultural literacy. (I'm writing as if I think real IQ tests are a good idea, and they are not --- in fact, that's my whole point: there's a myt…

The efficacy of IQ tests are a separate argument and the general abandonment of IQ tests by corporations as a demonstration of their inefficacy would be more substantive if such tests were not in effect made illegal at the same time. I.e. if IQ testing conferred no possible legal liability then the spontaneous abandonment of their use might be evidence of their ineffectiveness.

I'm saying, if you want to cite a case as an example of why IQ tests are legally disfavored, the case should be about an IQ test.

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#262

Post by tptacek »

cjbgkagh wrote: post #250
tptacek wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This NY Post story is speculative; the VC firm that did this (stupid) hiring thing, of asking people to take a free online IQ test and a Meyers-Briggs personality test(!) , got called out on Twitter and backed down, blaming the process on an intern. They weren't sued. I'm not saying you won't get dunked on if you, for instance, Wonderlic-test applicants for your tech company. You will. But I don't think you're going…

I'm grasping at straws looking for a counter example to my overall assertion, that it is not a great counter example does not undermine my case. I made a genuine good faith effort to find them - you could help me out a lot if you could list these companies that boast publicly about administering IQ tests. That would go a long way to demonstrating that such tests are not in effect illegal. My assertion is that IQ test…

Were that the case, several of the largest employers in the country should be getting routinely sued for hiring discrimination. They are not.

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#263

Post by yebadem »

I'm surprised how no one mentions an argument focusing on personality. Back in the day, having a qualification proved to some extend a certain level of understanding of someones character. So the companies went along with your degrees as in accomplishments for a judge of character. This is destroyed by the internet and further demolished with AI.

Now with the power of AI and internet, current toolset of that an employee has makes it possible to complete complex tasks, completely breaking the link between someones character and their accomplishments. Hence, you have employees who can solve problems but they have no interest nor passion for the job. Maybe not even good work ethics in some cases. And employers, who keep complaining about new employees not working properly anymore, double down on "picking the best candidate" by looking at their accomplishments which is quite often fake or not as high as they think they are.

There is a great video on YouTube by Timothy Cain explaining how a piece of code that should take 15 min to code takes 4 weeks now.

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#264

Post by 0cf8612b2e1e »

mberning wrote: post #22
Beijinger wrote: post #2

The job market has collapsed. You need to know someboody. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons

I have interviewed dozens of people for fairly specialized roles and the number of people with an impressive looking resume that end up being pretenders is probably greater than 90%. I would much rather interview and hire someone that another trusted party can vouch for. I understand that everyone wants to grow in their career, stretch themself, market themself well, etc. but there is a lot of blatant lying and cheat…

As a job seeker, this is something that worries me all the time. I think I am a pretty honest person and do not embellish my work. Yet, my resume is going to be sitting amidst heaps of liars who will say whatever is required. How often am I going to be passed over at the initial filtering because of my more modest listed credentials?

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#265

Post by giantg2 »

alephnerd wrote: post #238
giantg2 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but even as a new employee, my past experiences have conditioned me to expect that I will get screwed over the same way even at a new company.

And this is why the job market sucks. Enough hiring managers and applicants have been screwed over by the other that it's become adversarial. It is what it is. ------- My two cents though to you giantg2, the mentality you have is not feasible in the private sector as neither employers nor employees have any loyalty anymore. Either switch to a government programming job (plenty of those now and they are increasingly r…

Eh, I've been at this job for somethingblike 13 years. Might as well stick at it. There isn't anything feasible for me to switch to anyways. I've tried the marketing shit and it didn't work for me.

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#266

Post by cjbgkagh »

tptacek wrote: post #262
cjbgkagh wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm grasping at straws looking for a counter example to my overall assertion, that it is not a great counter example does not undermine my case. I made a genuine good faith effort to find them - you could help me out a lot if you could list these companies that boast publicly about administering IQ tests. That would go a long way to demonstrating that such tests are not in effect illegal. My assertion is that IQ test…

Were that the case, several of the largest employers in the country should be getting routinely sued for hiring discrimination. They are not.

Ok, so what several largest employers are you talking about? If this is pubic knowledge as you allege then there is no need to be obtuse. And again, that list of employers that publicly brag about continued administering of IQ tests would be rather helpful to your case and would allow me to substantively check your assertion. I don't understand why in good faith you would not want to share this information.

You cannot use the absence of lawsuits for a list of companies that you are keeping secret as evidence of absence of legal liability.

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#267

Post by smsm42 »

I was just thinking the other day about writing exactly this post. I've been many times on the hiring side as the interviewer, and now also am on the employee side. On both sides, the process looks extremely broken and extremely frustrating. People in the system sometimes help to get it from "screaming eldritch horror" level to "root canal every day for a month" level but I'd still easily nominate this as the worst problem in the industry, without even a shred of a solution surfacing so far.

We are wasting an enormous amounts of money and effort. I know that employers spend month to look for a suitable candidate, and I know there are thousands of qualified candidates - myself included - spending months in doing process dances that frequently lead nowhere despite there being thousands of jobs matching them and being unfulfilled. And this is not a temporary phenomenon - this is going on for years and decades, without any shred of a solution.

In fact, it's probably getting worse - with the industry growing, the amount of jobs you have to sort through to get some prospects is humongous. You have to reduce the amount of effort you spend to each position. Which in turn prompts the employer to erect more filters because they are afraid of low-effort submissions. And the high-effort submissions are lost in those filters so often that it becomes useless to do anything but low-effort. I mean, how many thoughtful, detailed, well-researched, specific to a position, cover letters can you write in a day? Now many you are willing to, when you know probably nobody would even read it because cheap AI would just scan it for keywords anyway? So, the cost and the length of the process is rising. I really hope somebody somewhere has some ideas on how to fix it...

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#268

Post by cjbgkagh »

tptacek wrote: post #261
cjbgkagh wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The efficacy of IQ tests are a separate argument and the general abandonment of IQ tests by corporations as a demonstration of their inefficacy would be more substantive if such tests were not in effect made illegal at the same time. I.e. if IQ testing conferred no possible legal liability then the spontaneous abandonment of their use might be evidence of their ineffectiveness.

I'm saying, if you want to cite a case as an example of why IQ tests are legally disfavored, the case should be about an IQ test.

In my view that is not how logic works, I think we've passed the point of productive discussion and I will leave you to your beliefs.

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#269

Post by bishbosh »

ohthatsnotright wrote: post #180
nicolas_t wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience has always been that if you take 6 months to contribute to open source centered around the new thing you want to work on, you'll quickly meet people that will allow you to get a job.

Unless you're looking to be hired in the US and live in a US territory, in which case you'll be hard pressed to find any employer who will hire you.

Interesting, what makes you say that?

Re: Discussion: Job seekers can't find a job and Employers can't find an employees

#270

Post by shagie »

mock-possum wrote: post #260

My big thing is there’s no personal contact possible via the application process anymore. Every form I fill out results in the same response from a ‘no-reply@‘ email address: > Thank you for your interest in COMPANY NAME and for applying to the JOB TITLE in LOCATION. > Having reviewed your application, unfortunately, we won’t be proceeding with your application at this time. Due to the high volume of applications, we…

If you have 100 resumes, and each one wants 15 minutes to talk - that is 3 days of back to back to back phone calls. (Aside: this is a rather soul draining endeavor and means everything else is pushed back a bit... the person who is conducting the calls should have some training / awareness of what is entailed so that they don't accidentally create an HR incident - this pretty much rules out the junior dev and many engineering team members).

What if you have 200? or 500? or 1000? How do you (the employer) decide which ones to talk to? How much budget are you willing to allocate to that?

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