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Coding interviews are stupid (ish)

darrenkopp.com

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Re: Coding interviews are stupid (ish)

#261

Post by nineplay »

kevincox wrote: post #250
nineplay wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the candidate has been assured that they will be asked 'leet' code questions where solving the problem isn't enough, they will also be asked about O notation and how the code can be optimized and whether to use memoization or recursion. This is what the books will tell you, this is what YouTube will tell you, this is what 'helpful' recruiters will tell you. And IME this is what most interviewers h…

I will ask all of those questions. But I don't expect perfect answers. You should at least know what big O is. I would really like it if you can tell an O(n^2) algorithm from a linear one. (That is often really important in real-world code). I would like you to consider different ways you can optimize the code. I don't expect you to quickly crank out a novel optimal algorithm. But I like to see that you can think abo…

That's a pretty far cry from

> which is to make sure the candidate can actually write code, like at all

It's also still a terrible approach and only gets leet code crammers.

Re: Coding interviews are stupid (ish)

#262

Post by feoren »

darrenkopp wrote: post #255
spankalee wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly this. In the interviews I give I care about whether the candidate can write code, yes, but also talk and think about code. The conversation is the most important part of the interview, and the thinking (and communication) is the most important thing I'm trying to judge after basic skills. Like you said, you can get a good sense within the first few lines of pseudocode if someone's at least competent at writin…

I, personally, cannot _think_ and _talk_ at the same time. It's just a stream of half-sentences, many of which my brain has already moved on from because what I originally thought won't work. After writing this article it became very apparent to me that I'm complete garbage at interviews, but I'll outperform and exceed at the actual job function.

In my work, if you literally cannot write any code while also discussing the code, and if you literally cannot express thoughts while also thinking them, then you actually wont exceed at the actual job function, at all. You're not the only programmer on the team. I don't know why people think communication skills are not required for programmers. You won't be coding the correct thing unless you can talk about what you're doing.

And that's all I ever ask in an interview. Ask questions and talk about what you're doing. The worst hires I've ever seen were all the ones who never asked questions and never talked about what they were working on. Half sentences are fine; moving away from the keyboard while we talk is fine; being unable to talk and think at the same time probably is not.

Re: Coding interviews are stupid (ish)

#263

Post by xandrius »

kstenerud wrote: post #221

My approach to interviews over the past decade has been as follows: 1. My preparation for an interview involves researching the company, not technical matters. I don't brush up on coding interview questions. I've never done leetcode. 2. If I find the interview questions to be ridiculously off-topic (such as silly algorithm questions), I end the interview. You're not the kind of company I want to work with. 3. If I fi…

We should be a union of people who won't take this kind of bs. I have the same exact procedure as I think interviews like that show a complete lack of understanding of what makes a developer great in a company, and let me tell you, solving CodeSignal/Leetcode unpaid for hours isn't that.

Re: Coding interviews are stupid (ish)

#264

Post by kyralis »

nox101 wrote: post #253
spankalee wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly this. In the interviews I give I care about whether the candidate can write code, yes, but also talk and think about code. The conversation is the most important part of the interview, and the thinking (and communication) is the most important thing I'm trying to judge after basic skills. Like you said, you can get a good sense within the first few lines of pseudocode if someone's at least competent at writin…

You are the exception I think. Most interviewers care about the correct answer. Get it and maybe get the job. Fail and definitely don't get the job. If the interviewer said at the beginning, "I don't expect you to solve this problem in the 40 minute nor to have an optimal solution. I just want to watch you write some code and hear the problems you foresee and how you'd solve them" then maybe I could relax and do that…

This is actually why I dislike these "coding interviews are useless" type articles. The issue has as much or more to do with bad interviewers than it does with the fact that it's a coding interview.

When I'm tasked with interviewing candidates and evaluating these basic algorithmic and coding skills, I have a 5-part problem (each building on the next, and only revealed when the previous one is complete) that is basically impossible to finish in the time allotted. I tell the candidate ahead of time that it's an ongoing problem that's designed to not be completable in the time: we're going to work through this problem and see how far we get. I've passed candidates who "failed" the actual problem, when the conversation and coding that were shown still gave me a good understanding of their capabilities.

Re: Coding interviews are stupid (ish)

#265

Post by kyralis »

spankalee wrote: post #189
dilyevsky wrote: post #139

Classic mistake of overthinking it and failing to realize what interviewer really wants - which is to make sure the candidate can actually write code, like at all. The question itself doesn't really matter as much as it's just a pretext. I actually asked a variation of this question for many years at Google and it was clear within first 5 mins who has been writing code day-to-day and who's been mostly "brining key st…

Exactly this. In the interviews I give I care about whether the candidate can write code, yes, but also talk and think about code. The conversation is the most important part of the interview, and the thinking (and communication) is the most important thing I'm trying to judge after basic skills. Like you said, you can get a good sense within the first few lines of pseudocode if someone's at least competent at writin…

You are not alone! This is also how I run coding interviews - I have absolutely passed candidates who did not actually complete the described problem. I always inform my candidates that we want to have a conversation about the problem and its solution. I also deliberately pick questions that are going to need thought and some design, specifically to spark that conversation - talking about reversing a list gets boring pretty fast.

The issues people have with coding interviews are more about the interviewers than the questions, honestly.

Re: Coding interviews are stupid (ish)

#266

Post by firstplacelast »

benreesman wrote: post #19

The modern FAANG Frankenstein interview is a mess. It was so/so at Google 15-20 years ago, it was so/so when initially FB but most everyone cargo-culted it 10-15 years ago. It’s become “grind leetcode” which is clearly a failure mode. The trouble is it’s a hard problem, and it usually gives - some signal, so it’s sort of better than nothing? I guess? In cases where contract-to-hire make sense for both the company and…

Do companies really want to solve it? Why hire so many MBA's when the nerds will wreck and devalue each others contributions/potential?

Re: Coding interviews are stupid (ish)

#267

Post by feoren »

spyspy wrote: post #203
spankalee wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly this. In the interviews I give I care about whether the candidate can write code, yes, but also talk and think about code. The conversation is the most important part of the interview, and the thinking (and communication) is the most important thing I'm trying to judge after basic skills. Like you said, you can get a good sense within the first few lines of pseudocode if someone's at least competent at writin…

Coding tests are an awful place to test someone’s conversational skills. I don’t talk while I code. You don’t either. Honestly I can’t even remember the last time I talked to anyone about the code itself outside of a PR. People talk about architecture and database migrations and why their containers aren’t behaving locally. Nobody ever tests for that stuff.

> I don’t talk while I code. You don’t either.

That's quite an assumption. You've never heard of pair programming? You've never asked for help on a bug in your code? You've never talked through alternate approaches to a piece of code with a coworker? You've never hashed out an interface or a method signature or some pseudocode while talking through the problem? You've never walked through a calculation with an SME? All of these are "code and talk at the same time" exercises.

If I'm being brutally honest, I have a deep-seated suspicion that everyone who says they can't talk and code at the same time also just cannot code at all. I don't know you, of course, and I'd love to be proven wrong. My sample size is small, but the few people I've met who cannot talk-and-code also simply could not code.

Re: Coding interviews are stupid (ish)

#268

Post by xandrius »

citizen_friend wrote: post #20
teeray wrote: post #10

The coding interview looks different when you view it for what it would be called in other industries: a licensure examination. It looks particularly insane to relicense for every single job you apply to. It also looks supremely unfair to have proctors for this exam with varying expectations and training to actually correctly administer it.

- licensing ensures only a minimum level of quality - people with licenses still do interviews, often just as grueling - licensed careers with high performers (lawyers, doctors, ib, etc) have other forms of filtering which are much more painful, like years of low pay internships Studying for a few weeks to solve fun puzzles to make 400k sounds like a deal to me.

Can I join your bubble?

Re: Coding interviews are stupid (ish)

#269

Post by DHPersonal »

chessnerd42 wrote: post #232
331c8c71 wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And vocalizing this inner dialogue comes naturally to you I suppose.

If you can't explain your thoughts out loud then you're going to have a difficult time working anywhere.

As I've gotten older I've discovered that I really can't judge normalcy based on what I find natural to me. Every brain is different and abilities range. Some people visualize things in their head; some people have to talk out their thoughts; some people are more optimistic. If we are only grading on one very particular brain type then we are missing out on the opportunities for diverse thought patterns producing something even better than expected.

Re: Coding interviews are stupid (ish)

#270

Post by xandrius »

roenxi wrote: post #40
teeray wrote: post #10

The coding interview looks different when you view it for what it would be called in other industries: a licensure examination. It looks particularly insane to relicense for every single job you apply to. It also looks supremely unfair to have proctors for this exam with varying expectations and training to actually correctly administer it.

The roughest outline for hiring as far as I can follow it is start with 100 resumes, filter it down to 10 by picking ones that are nicely formatted, then filter down to 1 by interviewing. Each level of filtering should be structured so that it biases towards technical competence. It isn't really a licensure examination because, as you point out, the industry doesn't bother to put the resources in to make sure anythin…

Got any tips/suggestions on how not to be filtered out because of "formatting"? Got any great examples to share?
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