Terraform makes carbon neutral natural gas • Hacker News Board

Re: Terraform makes carbon neutral natural gas

#261

Post by pfdietz » Thu, Apr 04, 2024, 8:21 AM UTC

aldonius wrote: post #197

pfdietz wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You repeat some of the anti-hydrogen memes. Hydrogen is actually quite storable, certainly much more easily stored than energy in batteries. The cost of underground storage caverns for hydrogen is two orders of magnitude cheaper than the cost of batteries storing the same energy.

That's great, but how do I take one of these underground caverns around with me? :P More seriously, I'm sure hydrogen will make a valuable contribution to the stationary grid-level energy storage situation. I'm not convinced about other applications.

You don't, just as you don't take massive takes of compressed methane around with you (I know about CNG cars; they're not competitive with BEVs or liquid fueled cars.) Methane and hydrogen are competing in stationary applications.

Re: Terraform makes carbon neutral natural gas

#262

Post by pfdietz » Thu, Apr 04, 2024, 8:22 AM UTC

woeirua wrote: post #213

pfdietz wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You repeat some of the anti-hydrogen memes. Hydrogen is actually quite storable, certainly much more easily stored than energy in batteries. The cost of underground storage caverns for hydrogen is two orders of magnitude cheaper than the cost of batteries storing the same energy.

Guess what the cost of an underground storage cavity is for natural gas? Very cheap, because they're everywhere.

Yes, but hydrogen has the advantage of not requiring CO2 to either be acquired or recovered.

Re: Terraform makes carbon neutral natural gas

#263

Post by marax27 » Thu, Apr 04, 2024, 8:34 AM UTC

BWStearns wrote: post #128

kartoffelmos wrote: post #37

How will this address methane leakage, which is a substantial source of athmospheric greenhouse gas emissions? Converting Co2 to methane is not carbon neutral if/when leaked...

Doesn't methane get reacted away in a relatively short (≈years) period of time?

It kind of does, but calculating its actual lifetime or warming effect is tricky. This post explains it quite nicely: https://climateer.substack.com/p/methane-lifetime

Re: Terraform makes carbon neutral natural gas

#264

Post by kamray23 » Thu, Apr 04, 2024, 8:36 AM UTC

rich_sasha wrote: post #109

kartoffelmos wrote: post #37

How will this address methane leakage, which is a substantial source of athmospheric greenhouse gas emissions? Converting Co2 to methane is not carbon neutral if/when leaked...

Natural gas is already stored in enormous quantities, and shipped around the world. Leakage appears to happen mostly in transit, or at poorly maintained installations. My guess is, it's a solvable problem.

Solvable, yes, but at least in Europe it is currently dirtier than anthracite coal due to leakages in lifetime emissions. Solvable but not solved, and we really should be looking for solutions.

Re: Terraform makes carbon neutral natural gas

#265

Post by pbmonster » Thu, Apr 04, 2024, 8:41 AM UTC

pfdietz wrote: post #260

jillesvangurp wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the economics of storing and transporting hydrogen are just not great. You need a lot of energy and infrastructure to do it. And while the density per kg is great. The density by volume is absolutely terrible because hydrogen is the smallest and lightest molecule. In liquid and gas form it's nearly 3x the volume of methane (for the same amount of energy). If you are transporting it in compressed gas form (lik…

The economics of storing hydrogen for long periods is just fine, compared to the economics of storing energy in batteries for long periods.

> compared to the economics of storing energy in batteries for long periods

Which doesn't say much, since practically nobody is doing that.

Re: Terraform makes carbon neutral natural gas

#266

Post by concordDance » Thu, Apr 04, 2024, 8:45 AM UTC

I really appreciate them putting actial numbers in here! So many places are deliberately vague on numbers.

A $100,000 base cost for the entire system is unbelievably cheap!

To put that in context, you could offset the entire worlds CO2 emissions for just $35 trillion worth of these! That might sound like a lot, but it's technically achievable, being half the USA federal budget for 10 years.

The energy requirements also aren't impossible, about 350TW of power, easily less than a 100km x 100km square of solar panels. (Admittedly, this is several times more expensive than the Terraform installations, but we need power anyway and will be getting more efficient at solar panel manufacture)

Interestingly, this also puts an upper bound on a reasonable CO2 tax of $1000/ton or around £1.8 per litre of petrol, so lovers of fossil fuels and flying can still drive on the track or go for a flight on weekends.

Re: Terraform makes carbon neutral natural gas

#267

Post by jillesvangurp » Thu, Apr 04, 2024, 8:46 AM UTC

pbmonster wrote: post #265

pfdietz wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The economics of storing hydrogen for long periods is just fine, compared to the economics of storing energy in batteries for long periods.

> compared to the economics of storing energy in batteries for long periods Which doesn't say much, since practically nobody is doing that.

Also the need for this long term storage is never quantified by those we need it. Put a twh number on it and the problem melts away. We're actually producing batteries by the twh per year now.

Re: Terraform makes carbon neutral natural gas

#268

Post by pbmonster » Thu, Apr 04, 2024, 8:51 AM UTC

fransje26 wrote: post #254

maerF0x0 wrote: post #38

What are some applications where its worth taking the highest grade energy (electricity) and turning it into a lower grade (eg liquid fuels), rather than electrifying the application? Electricity to motion is significantly more efficient per input energy than burning fuel->heat-> gaseous expansion->drive a piston->convert to rotation chain. What am I missing about this?

Applications that need heat. Metallurgy, for instance.

You can actually electrify much of metallurgy, and this is already happening. Things like cement kilns are much more difficult, on the other hand.

Re: Terraform makes carbon neutral natural gas

#269

Post by Borg3 » Thu, Apr 04, 2024, 9:04 AM UTC

Hmm, this is interesting, but I have few doubts about it. First, Metane is worst gas to come by. Its super greenhouse gas. Second, everyone screems about carbon neutral, but do those people understand carbon cycle on this planet? Its essential for plants. Less CO2 in atmosphere, plants growth is slower. If you start to compete with plants for it, it might have unforseen consequences.

I hope someone will put some research on it. This is usual human aproach. Lets fix one thing, worry about consequences later.

Re: Terraform makes carbon neutral natural gas

#270

Post by popol12 » Thu, Apr 04, 2024, 9:24 AM UTC

Borg3 wrote: post #269

Hmm, this is interesting, but I have few doubts about it. First, Metane is worst gas to come by. Its super greenhouse gas. Second, everyone screems about carbon neutral, but do those people understand carbon cycle on this planet? Its essential for plants. Less CO2 in atmosphere, plants growth is slower. If you start to compete with plants for it, it might have unforseen consequences. I hope someone will put some rese…

We've spend the last 2 centuries burning fossil fuels from the ground, significantly increasing the atmospheric CO2 levels. Capturing some of it back won't make a difference for plants. Also, when you burn methane, you release CO2 again. So it's not like there's a finite amount of CO2 to pump from the atmosphere, it will renew itself.