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Why is it so hard to build an airport?

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Re: Why is it so hard to build an airport?

#261

Post by bombcar »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #73
traceroute66 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> US airports always seem to be surrounded by densely populated residential areas The US in general is very densely built up. The distinct lack of green space in US cities is very noticeable to the non-US observer. So I think its more of a case that US airports are surrounded by "less" densely populated areas. > And secondly Us airports always seem to take huge plots of land compared to Euro airports. With the except…

> The distinct lack of green space in US cities is very noticeable to the non-US observer. Huh? I felt the exact opposite in France. Many French cities have a bunch of nice parks, but everything else is wall-to-wall pavement. I always felt the common refrain about there being dog shit all over Paris is because on many streets there is barely a patch of grass for a dog to even go, so if you have a rude person that doe…

Cities in the USA do not have many things like big parks (Central Park in NY, Balboa Park in SD) but what they do have is a lot more grass next to the sidewalk type of greenery, except areas that are dense enough that they've all died (like LA near the airport).

Re: Why is it so hard to build an airport?

#262

Post by duped »

nradov wrote: post #239
duped wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell that to the people who lived in the heart of Bensenville that's now a runway.

What's your point? You could say the same thing about almost any major infrastructure project. We can't allow a handful of residents somewhere to veto everything. This is exactly what eminent domain was intended for: as long as they received fair compensation then it's fine.

You can't say "they know what they were getting into" when the state shows up and demolishes half a community that had been there for 130 years. I don't think anyone expects the state to force them off their land or their town demolished.

> We can't allow a handful of residents somewhere to veto everything.

We also shouldn't allow non-residents to profit off the pain of people who actually live where the infrastructure is.

My point is that the surrounding suburbs are suffering the pain of being adjacent to an airport while deriving very little benefit, and those do benefit want to expand to increase traffic. Chicago gets quite a lot out of the increasing traffic through O'hare while the people that actually live nearby don't.

Re: Why is it so hard to build an airport?

#263

Post by thrawa8387336 »

jrockway wrote: post #200
sofixa wrote: post #126

> And an airport can’t be too far from a city and remain useful, since travelers need to access the city, workers need to be within commuting distance, and so on. In Canada, Mirabel airport was built 35 miles from Montreal, surrounded by a 79,000 acre buffer zone to prevent any issues of incompatible land use. Mirabel was expected to replace Dorval (today Montreal-Trudeau) as Canada’s main eastern airport, but, in pa…

Montreal isn't the only city that failed with a too-far-away airport. Tokyo built Narita against much local opposition (they still check your ID before you're allowed inside the airport, to make sure you're not an angry local resident), and the opposition resulted in not being able to build the transport link they wanted (the Narita Shinkansen). The result is a good hour wasted on conventional rail to get to Tokyo. (…

I had to laugh out. The Japanese do not like the American tourists?

Re: Why is it so hard to build an airport?

#264

Post by tomcam »

throwup238 wrote: post #135
danpalmer wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's less about the inner cities and more about the suburbs. In the US there are certainly lots of little bits of curb with plants on, but little in the way of large useful green space. Comparing the LA metro area to almost any European city, it's stark how much more unused or usable green space there is in Europe. The US seems much more binary – you're either in a city, or you're outside one, it's not like t…

Yeah but compare the San Diego metro area just a little south and it’s overwhelmingly full of green space. I live in SD proper and there’s several open space parks within walking distance that are measured in the square miles with tens of miles of trails each, not to mention the recreational parks in every neighborhood and kids parks that are every few blocks. The suburb cities in the county have even more open space…

> suburbs of Seattle like Bellevue and Richmond

Redmond?

Re: Why is it so hard to build an airport?

#265

Post by bell-cot »

bradley13 wrote: post #59
bell-cot wrote: post #2

Long & interesting...but a pretty good tl;dr; is: "NIMBY's are why we can't build any major infrastructure any more".

Sure, this is classic NIMBYism. I understand: we live in a very quiet area, and would certainly oppose something that would dramatically change that. However, what I do not understand are the people who move next to an existing airport, and then complain about the noise. We used to live near a major, international airport. Planes flew overhead. That noise was implicitly factored into the price we paid, and we certain…

Sadly, that sort of entitled idiocy (move next to an existing, then complain) is definitely not limited to airports. It doesn't matter if it's other nearby infrastructure (major roads, railroads, power lines, whatever), or lack of infrastructure (water, sewer, flood control, etc.), or the nicely-maintained vacant lot next door, or what.

Re: Why is it so hard to build an airport?

#267

Post by pchristensen »

arnon wrote: post #150
jorisboris wrote: post #24

When building https://randomairport.onrender.com/ I noticed that US and Euro airports always look very different Somehow US airports always seem to be surrounded by densely populated residential areas, even in the direction of the runways, while Euro airports don’t seem to have this problem. And secondly Us airports always seem to take huge plots of land compared to Euro airports. My assumption is that Us cities are…

The US has no alternative forms of transport. Taking an airplane is the most convenient way. In Germany, Italy, Switzerland, France, and the UK taking a train is faster and more convenient (even if more expensive often)

The US is also much, much bigger. Germany is about the size of Nevada. France is about the size of the entire Eastern seaboard.

The US would definitely be better served with better rail infrastructure, but there's no getting around the fact that Seattle to Boston is 200 miles longer than Lisbon to Moscow, and slightly longer than Edinburgh to Aleppo.

Re: Why is it so hard to build an airport?

#268

Post by treflop »

po wrote: post #30

If you fly into Tokyo you might come in via Narita Airport (NRT) which is actually quite a distance out from tokyo. Violence is extremely uncommon in modern Japan but NRT was the site of violent resistance over several decades. Opposition forces killed several police officers, rioted on several occasions and constructed a giant 200 ft tower to interfere with test flights. Hundreds of acts of vandalism have occurred o…

Japan is well known for violent political clashes.

There is still a very obvious house in the middle of Narita Airport that you can see when flying in or out. There are roads to it underneath the airport.

Re: Why is it so hard to build an airport?

#269

Post by dabeeeenster »

KineticLensman wrote: post #246
jorisboris wrote: post #24

When building https://randomairport.onrender.com/ I noticed that US and Euro airports always look very different Somehow US airports always seem to be surrounded by densely populated residential areas, even in the direction of the runways, while Euro airports don’t seem to have this problem. And secondly Us airports always seem to take huge plots of land compared to Euro airports. My assumption is that Us cities are…

> Somehow US airports always seem to be surrounded by densely populated residential areas, even in the direction of the runways, while Euro airports don’t seem to have this problem London Heathrow is entirely hemmed in by surrounding urban areas. Flights landing at Heathrow fly directly over central London (with great views of iconic buildings). It is technically possible to extend the runways somewhat but actually d…

Heathrow has had the Heathrow express train for years and years, and now also has the Elizabeth line; both very quick to get into C London.

Re: Why is it so hard to build an airport?

#270

Post by Dalewyn »

sofixa wrote: post #128
Dalewyn wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The aforementioned setup nearly always means the closer airport ends up getting upgraded later to meet convenience demands, leaving the newer-but-inconvenient airport out to dry. See: Haneda (HND) vs. Narita (NRT) in Tokyo, Itami (ITM) vs. Kansai (KIX) in Osaka, etc.

Not if the old airport gets closed - like Tegel and Tempelhof were in Berlin, even though the new one next to Schonefeld wasn't ready yet due to it being a fiasco of colossal proportions.

Sure, like in the case of Hiroshima Airport (HIJ) and its predecessor (HIW), but even then most people (not necessarily including the politicians) end up longing for the one that was more convenient.
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