Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage • Hacker News Board

Re: Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage

#261

Post by jimbob45 » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 7:17 PM UTC

smolder wrote: post #237

jimbob45 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't agree more. I'm tired of the HN crowd that espouses the benefits of building more supply, yet consider the AirBNB and rental-afflicted homes to be totally untouchable. Even worse are the ones that seem to strongly believe in environmentalism, yet have no problem tearing down forests to build more supply on them...for AirBNBs and rentals.

Cutting down trees to build housing or furniture or whatever is a carbon sink. More trees can be planted.

On top of the house that took the space where trees previously were? There’s only so much space for trees. Seizing it for AirBNBs seems like a massive waste when we have hotels that use space much more efficiently.

Re: Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage

#262

Post by mdorazio » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 7:18 PM UTC

stronglikedan wrote: post #207

shortsunblack wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

which is fine, if they are willing to pay the full cost of it. suburbia is massively subsidized.

> suburbia is massively subsidized That's a common argument that no one has been able to sufficiently prove.

The mortgage interest tax deduction by itself is enough to refute you.

Re: Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage

#263

Post by __egb__ » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 7:18 PM UTC

oramit wrote: post #150

rybosworld wrote: post #57

Every single major population center that has distorted (high) housing costs relative to income, also has very strong protections for the existing home owners (NIMBY). "There are no coincidences..." The solution is terrifyingly simple: don't allow existing residents to block new housing developments. If they don't like it, they can move. This will probably never happen in the U.S., because the government no longer fu…

The incredible thicket of state, county, and municipal rules all layer and combine to make housing incredibly difficult to build. It's the technical debt of the material world. Seriously, look up your local zoning rules. It's not "you can't build a chemical plant next to a preschool" like it's so often portrayed. It's minimum size for the lot, max square footage of the house based on lot size, max/min frontage, heigh…

Many of the zoning rules you list, and far many more that you don’t, exist for valid reasons. Those reasons may not be as obvious as the chemical plant/preschool rule, but that doesn’t mean they’re not just as valid.

I live near a cove that comes off of the Chesapeake Bay. We have many of those zoning rules here for environmental reasons. Water movement and erosion are huge concerns here. Rules that affect density, frontages, trees within 100’ of the water…they are all necessary for the common good of the entire area.

We actually have a case on the other side of the neighborhood. A guy bought some land near his property for cheap. It’s not zoned for development because much of it is wetlands. He thought he could pressure the local zoning board to rezone it so he could make a handsome profit reselling it to a developer. As part of that effort, he diverted a creek and filled in the wetlands…and now several houses in the adjoining neighborhood flood (and there are legal repercussions for our entire neighborhood).

Re: Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage

#264

Post by majormajor » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 7:19 PM UTC

foxyv wrote: post #177

It takes significantly less materials to build a multi-dwelling apartment/condo/townhouse structure than a single family home. In addition, the required square footage per person drops by huge amounts when people can walk to nearby community centers, restaurants, kitchens, theaters, and bars. We are building massive 3-4k sq. ft. homes for families of four because all of their food, entertainment, and social needs are…

> We are building massive 3-4k sq. ft. homes for families of four because all of their food, entertainment, and social needs are not met by their community.

You assume it's a necessity thing instead of a desire+wealth thing. Yet the history of the wealthy and powerful "escaping" to large estates goes back centuries (millenia!).

Additionally, the housing affordability crisis is also happening in European cities with 4+ story buildings everywhere and shops and restaurants on every corner.

If you misunderstand what exactly the problem is and what exactly is being desired and what is being purchased then any sort of "build it and they come" attempts to provide alternatives will be limited by the misconceptions, and any sort of enforce-through-policy change will by stymied by lack of popular support.

Re: Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage

#265

Post by bitcurious » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 7:19 PM UTC

foxyv wrote: post #217

stronglikedan wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> suburbia is massively subsidized That's a common argument that no one has been able to sufficiently prove.

The results of multiple studies have validated this claim: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/53dd6676e4b0fedfbc26e...

I’ll admit that I merely skimmed the study, but as I read it states that local/municipal property taxes in many cases don’t cover the road infrastructure required to support those homes. To make the argument that they are subsidized you’d also have to factor in municipal and state income taxes.

Re: Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage

#266

Post by foxyv » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 7:19 PM UTC

tpmoney wrote: post #221

foxyv wrote: post #177

It takes significantly less materials to build a multi-dwelling apartment/condo/townhouse structure than a single family home. In addition, the required square footage per person drops by huge amounts when people can walk to nearby community centers, restaurants, kitchens, theaters, and bars. We are building massive 3-4k sq. ft. homes for families of four because all of their food, entertainment, and social needs are…

I would argue more than that the housing crisis is an “urban crisis” and a “fraying of the social fabric” crisis. By the first I mean the continued destruction of smaller towns and semi-rural areas. Even if single family homes are more expensive to build than multi family apartments, the fact is we have ridiculous amounts of space in this country. But most people for various reasons don’t want to live where the space…

A huge reason these shared spaces are so miserable is because the communities around them cannot support them. Parking minimums and low density means that not only are these commercial properties insanely expensive, but also that not enough people can access them.

A huge upside to increasing density is that the theatre goes from having 100 people within 4 miles of it to 10,000. In addition, instead of having a 400 car parking lot surrounding it like a moat, people just walk right in off the sidewalk. This means the theatre makes more money and pays less in rent. This means they can hire more people to keep it clean and safe.

You start to get theaters like this: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Path%C3%A9+Rembrandt+Utrec...

Re: Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage

#267

Post by ska » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 7:20 PM UTC

compiler-devel wrote: post #215

shortsunblack wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

which is fine, if they are willing to pay the full cost of it. suburbia is massively subsidized.

It’s not though, this is one of those “we take less taxes if you pay mortgage interest” type arguments. That isn’t subsidizing.

Although it's not really that much of a factor these days, it effectively is equivalent to a subsidy. So is government backing of mortgages for that matter.

Re: Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage

#268

Post by _uhtu » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 7:20 PM UTC

foxyv wrote: post #248

sandworm101 wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Everyone has their own bar, restaurant, theatre, and community center. As opposed to all the "urban lifestyle" people who readily offload their basic needs onto others. Some people are happy cooking their own basic foods. Others want them to be prepared, and their dished cleaned, by a team. Some people are happy with a beer fridge. Others want to go to a bar and pay a young person to smile and flirt while concocti…

I'm not saying we should ban 4000 sq.ft. detached homes on large sprawling lots. They just shouldn't be the ONLY type of home being built. Give people options so they can choose. In fact, if you want to have that beautiful home surrounded by nature and not suburban cookie cutter houses, then it's also in your interest to see that cities stay in the cities. Too many orchards and farms have been demolished to build mis…

Exactly this. People act like it's a "big government takeover" trying to make multi-family housing against peoples wishes. The real fact is it's the exact opposite. "Big government" policies were created forcing people to only build single family homes on massive lots. Current proposals are to remove those regulations, and ironically people see it as the government coming for them.

Re: Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage

#269

Post by Gibbon1 » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 7:21 PM UTC

ilamont wrote: post #186

I am building a house in a rural area, where land is cheap. Building is not. Timber is certainly expensive, but you know what else costs a lot? All the other stuff, much of it subject to state building codes that get more restrictive every year. Asbestos survey, assessment, abatement: $10k Asbestos air monitoring: $1k Tipping fees: 20k Spray foam insulation: $27k Foundation $50k Solar: 40k (not including rebates/ince…

Spray foam insulation: $27k

Got to say using spray foam to insulate the wall cavities instead of using external insulation over the structural elements is about the worst idea ever.

Also how much solar can you buy for $27k? Enough to supply 60kwh a day to run a heat pump.

Re: Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage

#270

Post by qwertyuiop_ » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 7:21 PM UTC

foxyv wrote: post #177

It takes significantly less materials to build a multi-dwelling apartment/condo/townhouse structure than a single family home. In addition, the required square footage per person drops by huge amounts when people can walk to nearby community centers, restaurants, kitchens, theaters, and bars. We are building massive 3-4k sq. ft. homes for families of four because all of their food, entertainment, and social needs are…

I live in a multi housing building and its a NIGHTMARE. A drug dealer moved in next door and he smokes all kinds of synthetic drugs 24/7 the shared walls and gaps are so thin the drugs leak in to my home. The person above me has some sort of mental condition, he wakes up at 12:45 am and starts drumming the floor with his hands, runs around and moves the furniture all night everyday. There isnt a damn thing i can do about this other than pack and move. the hoa is an exercise in futility. I am now literally nauseously averse to “muti-unit” housing.