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PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

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Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#261

Post by SirMaster »

hmottestad wrote: post #259
CharlesW wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With iOS 17.4 in the EU, you can no longer make a web app (PWA) that uses a full screen window with no browser ui controls. Are you sure? Go to https://sindresorhus.com/screenfull/ , tap "Request", and you should see a full-screen website. Any [website|webapp|PWA] can do this with Safari. (Screenshot: https://imgur.com/a/CTWFPol ) Third-party browsers using their own browser engines can do whatever they like. > How…

That's good. The Fullscreen API isn't exactly the same as a PWA, but it might go a long way to make my PWAs feel a bit more native again. I see that the support for the Fullscreen API isn't available in iOS 17.3 but will be available once 17.4 lands. "Added support for the Fullscreen API on iOS. (118083593)" https://developer.apple.com/documentation/safari-release-not...

That’s interesting.

I use that with a site I make that I want to look and feel more like an app and so I use the PWA fullscreen stuff now.

I have no need for all the browser url bar and buttons and it just wastes precious screen space for my application.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#262

Post by turquoisevar »

DANmode wrote: post #180
CharlesW wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The DMA requires that Apple not favor Safari. A direct integration between Safari and Home Screen favors Safari, and so is not allowed under the DMA.

So...they're tearing out all OS features that favor Safari? or just the features they're motivated not to offer a path to using for other publishers? (Like, webapp support)

Pretty much.

You emphasized “all” to imply there are so many, but honestly I can’t think of much beyond what they’re already mitigating to comply with the DMA.

You’ll get a browser selection screen now, other engines will be allowed, default browser choice gets further expanded in terms of implementation so it essentially ensures you never have to touch Safari.

The only thing that is being torn out is PWA installation on Home Screen because it would be yet another significant architectural change that comes with some significant engineering effort during a time of crunch, when the install rate of PWAs is abysmal as it is, even on other OSs.

Seems fair to me.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#263

Post by turquoisevar »

freedomben wrote: post #19
hmottestad wrote: post #7

I love developing PWAs because I can quickly and easily make an app for myself and my family that works without having to provision their devices or pay a dev license to Apple. I also use it at work for internal apps. It’s great for all those things. It’s very obvious to me that I’m a second priority for Apple. Dark mode breaking in iOS 17 and still broken 5 months later. Updating the app is tricky, and making users…

> I can quickly and easily make an app for myself and my family that works without having to provision their devices or pay a dev license to Apple. I also use it at work for internal apps. This is exactly why they don't want it. Some will say it's because those are Apple's users and Apple wants to ensure a great user experience and doesn't want unapproved things running on their devices, and others will say it's beca…

And what do you say to those who point out that Apple has invested significantly in supporting PWAs the last 4 years or so?

To the point that PWA support matches, and in some cases surpasses, Firefox with more on the way as we speak?

Doesn’t that run counter to this theory that Apple is purposefully making PWAs unviable to the benefit of their App Store? Why take away the biggest hurdles that PWAs had on iOS if that was the goal?

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#264

Post by [deleted] »

chrisandchris wrote: post #119
moooo99 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it though? A large portion of apps on the mobile app stores are already built using cross-platform technologies like React Native, Ionic or Flutter. In some instances it is very easy to tell, in other it's not. You can create quality experiences using cross-platform, you can create awful experiences using native tooling. In many instances, I'd rather have the not totally native app that exists than the absolutely…

I understand your point, but it somewhat says that making awesome native apps is not even an option anymore. I use Things (a todo app) daily. It was #1 of Design in the AppStore maybe already 5 years ago. I think it's a perfect example for a beautifully made native app. I really feel how the native behaviour workes so much smoother. I would love for creators to somehow strive more for beautifully made apps instead of…

[deleted]

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#265

Post by DANmode »

turquoisevar wrote: post #262
DANmode wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So...they're tearing out all OS features that favor Safari? or just the features they're motivated not to offer a path to using for other publishers? (Like, webapp support)

Pretty much. You emphasized “all” to imply there are so many, but honestly I can’t think of much beyond what they’re already mitigating to comply with the DMA. You’ll get a browser selection screen now, other engines will be allowed, default browser choice gets further expanded in terms of implementation so it essentially ensures you never have to touch Safari. The only thing that is being torn out is PWA installatio…

Siri won't learn from Safari activity, anymore?

and a dozen other similar questions...

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#266

Post by turquoisevar »

DANmode wrote: post #265
turquoisevar wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much. You emphasized “all” to imply there are so many, but honestly I can’t think of much beyond what they’re already mitigating to comply with the DMA. You’ll get a browser selection screen now, other engines will be allowed, default browser choice gets further expanded in terms of implementation so it essentially ensures you never have to touch Safari. The only thing that is being torn out is PWA installatio…

Siri won't learn from Safari activity, anymore? and a dozen other similar questions...

> Siri won't learn from Safari activity, anymore?

Can you clarify what you mean by this?

If Siri would be the one benefiting (which is what you seem to be saying?) then it wouldn’t give Safari an unfair advantage.

No virtual assistants have been designated as gatekeepers under the DMA so preferential treatment of Siri would still be allowed.

That said, to my knowledge Siri doesn’t “learn” from Safari in the sense that it improves or trains on Safari user data.

Instead Safari, and all other apps, including third party apps, can provide information to Siri to be shown during search as well as providing shortcuts so the app can be controlled via Siri. Users have control over this to a degree so they can exclude information from certain apps.

Alternative voice assistants offer similar APIs to receive information and support voice commands for third party services.

> and a dozen other similar questions...

I’m all ears.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#267

Post by xd1936 »

BadHumans wrote: post #223
willsmith72 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the argument isn't why use a PWA, it's why use a native app? in most cases, a team wants their product to be easily installable, live on the home screen, and have access to all native APIs. right now, the best way to do that is a native app the cost to that is going through the app store, meaning paying apple for the dev license, paying apple a percentage of sales, adhering to the app store rules, allowing extra time…

I don't care whether something is a native app or a PWA. If I can create something that works completely offline without a ton of hassle then that is the option I will go with. If it is easier to do that with a PWA then great! And the question is definitely "why use a PWA?" Native apps are the established norm and if you want to change that then the case needs to be made as to why.

If you want an app that works offline without a ton of hassle, then PWAs are the easiest way to write something that's multiplatform. As a bonus, updates to your app are totally under your control and distributed as quickly as you want them to be.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#268

Post by danaris »

smoldesu wrote: post #256
danaris wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And if the users deliberately install it, what's the problem? And is this a universal principle of yours? For instance, would you say the same about malware—that anyone should have the right to develop it, and use whatever shady tactics they want to trick people into installing it—and if they do, that becomes their problem?

Users don't deliberately install malware, though. They do install Python runtimes; you can secure this the exact same way desktops have done for decades, by signing executable. It's literally elementary stuff.

Users don't deliberately install malware that's called "Install This To Give All Your Money To Scammers."

They deliberately install an app that's called "Funny Videos Daily Ha Ha!", that also has a rootkit or whatever that gives all their money to scammers.

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