Live data from Hacker News

Alaska Airlines flight 1282 NTSB preliminary report [pdf]

ntsb.gov

261–270 of 285 posts

Re: Alaska Airlines flight 1282 NTSB preliminary report [pdf]

#261
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are software engineer jobs where you need to keep your camera on during work hours to show you are in your seat.

Yeah, but nobody applies for those.

The people posting on Reddit would disprove your point. Likely because they do not tell you about that upfront and say it is a small thing.

Re: Alaska Airlines flight 1282 NTSB preliminary report [pdf]

#262
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are software engineer jobs where you need to keep your camera on during work hours to show you are in your seat.

These jobs do not attract the best software engineers.

What is your point? We were discussing when pilots should be expected to be recorded in the cockpit for privacy vs safety. I mentioned there are software engineer jobs where you have to keep the camera on all day.

There are jobs where you are expected to keep the camera and there are programmers who accept those work terms.

Re: Alaska Airlines flight 1282 NTSB preliminary report [pdf]

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could with sufficient pay.

The intersection between employers who demand to film you being in a chair and employers who shower their employees with substantial lucre is the null set.

I just watched a youtube video on how a person looking for editing jobs had some pretty poor working conditions with terrible pay. A very controlling boss, asking him to edit on an old x86 macbook because he was told it was 'for creators'. The guy mentioned he a beast machine at home he could edit remotely and the person told him "do you want to edit?". The boss would not even provide him a mouse-he had to edit by trackpad.

He walked out around noon. The boss asked him to come back for an extra $20 that day.

Re: Alaska Airlines flight 1282 NTSB preliminary report [pdf]

#264
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Potentially the result when you rob workers of the right to pride in workmanship. The most common complaint from old Boeing people who have left is that after the merger the McDonnell-Douglas people took over and the company switched from pride in engineering and quality of workmanship to cost cutting and bean counting. Also, shortly after the merger the corporate HQ moved, reflecting the priorities of the CEO. It ha…

The original move was also related to lobbying potential. But the CEO who started the moves etc. was a Boeing lifer.

yep but then the jack welch acolytes moved in and exponentially worsened it

Re: Alaska Airlines flight 1282 NTSB preliminary report [pdf]

#265

> The accident airplane was required to be equipped with a CVR that retained, at minimum, the last 2 hours of audio information, including flight crew communications and other sounds inside the cockpit ... The CVR was downloaded successfully; however, it was determined that the audio from the accident flight had been overwritten. The CVR circuit breaker had not been manually deactivated after the airplane landed foll…

[dead]

Re: Alaska Airlines flight 1282 NTSB preliminary report [pdf]

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rule (edit: in Europe) is now 25 hours for aircraft over a certain weight, though it is not (currently) retroactively applied to existing equipment. https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/12/04/2023-26...

That document is an in-progress proposal to amend a rule, no? I think there was strong opposition to this rule before this accident flight, and the blowback from the missing data here might be strong enough to be able to get it passed anyway.

[dead]

Re: Alaska Airlines flight 1282 NTSB preliminary report [pdf]

#267
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue here isn't using google chat, the accusation is that this was Spirit and Boeing conspiring to not record these in the proper work order system under the pretence that this work was being done by Spirit as-if-it-were pre-delivery. Read https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/safety/146074-boeing-inte... And then this from the doc: "The investigation continues to determine what manufacturing documents were used to…

A key point I read somewhere in the accusations is that non-Boeing contractors (e.g. Spirit) by policy cannot have access to CMES. Consequently, you have a system of record that a major party to work doesn't have access to. As we've all seen, this leads to "actual coordination" being instead done in a system all involved parties do have access to (SAT). Which inevitably leads to a desync between CMES (SOR by fiat) an…

[deleted]

Re: Alaska Airlines flight 1282 NTSB preliminary report [pdf]

#268
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue here isn't using google chat, the accusation is that this was Spirit and Boeing conspiring to not record these in the proper work order system under the pretence that this work was being done by Spirit as-if-it-were pre-delivery. Read https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/safety/146074-boeing-inte... And then this from the doc: "The investigation continues to determine what manufacturing documents were used to…

A key point I read somewhere in the accusations is that non-Boeing contractors (e.g. Spirit) by policy cannot have access to CMES. Consequently, you have a system of record that a major party to work doesn't have access to. As we've all seen, this leads to "actual coordination" being instead done in a system all involved parties do have access to (SAT). Which inevitably leads to a desync between CMES (SOR by fiat) an…

But isn't that exactly the underlying fraud? Boeing and Spirit are conspiring to cover up Spirit's deficient delivery by allowing Spirit to work onsite at Renton and do post-delivery re-work and pretend that it is as-if delivered, and _outside_ Boeing's system of record. To reject the delivery and wait for Spirit to fix would ruin their delivery schedule, so they fudge it and muddle along.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/faa-p....

Re: Alaska Airlines flight 1282 NTSB preliminary report [pdf]

#269
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really find it disingenuous to imply that we can’t build moon rockets because we’re not good enough at engineering projects - I can think of a few engineering projects that took off last year, to say the least. And nasa doesn’t deserve the shade IMO. The kids of the people who built the Apollo program aren’t working at boeing or fighting for one of the few underpaid nasa positions - they’re building reusable rocket…

If we're fine at engineering, why are doors falling off planes? I don't think you can say "We're fine at engineering but we're often terrible at management." They're not separate things. Engineering culture is about inventiveness, pride, craftsmanship, and getting the job done well. Bean counter culture is the opposite of all those. If that's the culture engineers work under not only do none of them happen, but they…

You’re making great points about the software/engineering industry and I don’t disagree about any of those specifics — engineering culture is paramount. I was just trying to point to (what I see as) the root cause: the engineering culture at Boeing didn’t fall apart because it’s run by lazy millennials or because the managers hadn’t read Mythical Man Month, it’s because they spent their money on stock buybacks and executive compensation.

Funnily enough, I went looking for Boeing stock buyback info and found this article… seems my hypothesis has some specific backing in this case!

Opinion | Did Stock Buybacks Knock the Bolts Out of Boeing? https://www.commondreams.org/opinion/boeing-safety-stock-buy...

Re: Alaska Airlines flight 1282 NTSB preliminary report [pdf]

#270
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we're fine at engineering, why are doors falling off planes? I don't think you can say "We're fine at engineering but we're often terrible at management." They're not separate things. Engineering culture is about inventiveness, pride, craftsmanship, and getting the job done well. Bean counter culture is the opposite of all those. If that's the culture engineers work under not only do none of them happen, but they…

You’re making great points about the software/engineering industry and I don’t disagree about any of those specifics — engineering culture is paramount. I was just trying to point to (what I see as) the root cause: the engineering culture at Boeing didn’t fall apart because it’s run by lazy millennials or because the managers hadn’t read Mythical Man Month, it’s because they spent their money on stock buybacks and ex…

Stock buybacks are tax efficient dividends. Boeing has been paying dividends fairly regularly since 1937, so paying stockholders can't really be the problem. Executive compensation is kind of a red herring too. If you don't like what the executives did, it probably reflects more on the choice of executives rather than the compensation of them, but you could maybe make an argument about how compensation incentives were setup.

MCAS and unbolted door plugs feel like two separate types of problems, IMHO. Both of them can be tied to Executives and culture, of course. MCAS comes from a desire to skirt regulations --- hiding automation from pilots in order to reduce certification requirements is a design error. OTOH; the unbolted door appears to come from production / rework corner cutting; the design is sound, the written process is sound (I think), but written process was not followed in order to meet schedule pressure.

You can have a company culture that encourages skirting regulations and cutting corners in production regardless of dividends/buybacks and executive compensation.

Post reply on HN