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Autonomous trucking is harder than autonomous rideshare

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Re: Autonomous trucking is harder than autonomous rideshare

#261

Post by caf »

lpapez wrote: post #195
ars wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then pressure (force) on each tire is lower now, so the friction is also lower. Effective friction is a function of weight and coefficient of friction between the materials. Interestingly the surface area of the contact is not part of the equation. On a flat surface a truck and a car using the same tire compound should have identical stopping distances. The issue comes when you are going downhill.

That equation works for friction between idealized solids. Tires are not even close to an idealized solid, they deform as more weight is added to them, so the contact surface area increases as more pressure is added. That is why you see racing cars with big fat tires, because it's more grip and the relationship is not linear.

That friction equation comes originally from empirical experiments, not from idealised models.

The explanation in fact relies on deformable surfaces. If you imagine keeping the normal force constant and reducing the apparent contact area, the pressure on the surfaces will be increased which will cause the surfaces to deform more, resulting in more microscopic points of adhesion.

Re: Autonomous trucking is harder than autonomous rideshare

#262

Post by datameta »

sva_ wrote: post #208
BobaFloutist wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> two trucks in tandem, and later perhaps more. Or we could put them on tracks and physically attach them to one another.

Yeah that would be ideal. Sadly a lot of stuff goes wrong in building rail because governments have to do it and clearly suck at it, and if it weren't so, there wouldn't be nearly as many trucks on the road. Unlike building rail, the concept I outlined would be feasible to do for a private corporation though, even a startup. The delta in necessary resources between the two is huge. I'm also not quite convinced that y…

Fortunately not all governments are terrible at rail infra planning/upkeep. Perhaps autonomous trucks as you outline could do the last X miles from the point the train offloads.

Re: Autonomous trucking is harder than autonomous rideshare

#263

Post by makeitdouble »

Rapzid wrote: post #230
makeitdouble wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On truckers dying on the job: you'd probably agree that there's arrangements that could save more truckers' lives but are not applied because of cost and lack of social pressure. For instance driver fatigue is said to be the primary cause of death among trucker, and that's obviously an issue we could throw money at to at least alleviate (but it wouldn't always be cheaper, that's the point) And to your point, yes, tha…

Driver fatigue is taken way more seriously than it used to be and measures and laws have been put in place to minimize it by forcing maximum driving and minimum resting periods. So, ignoring the fact that society doesn't just get together every year and decide to let people die, I'd say it's absolute cynical hyperbole to say society is "letting truckers die".

"Taken way more seriously" is a step on the spectrum. Where did we put the cursor ? At the point where the cost vs the number of deaths kinda makes sense.

I think it's a poisonous to ignore that tradeoff and wash our hands of the whole issue. It's like eating meat ignoring where it came from. That doesn't mean we all take extreme positions and become vegetarians, but it's not something we can completely ignore saying it's hyperbole or cynical to recognize as a fact.

Re: Autonomous trucking is harder than autonomous rideshare

#264

Post by ederamen »

capitainenemo wrote: post #258
beedeebeedee wrote: post #247

Build more railroads. (I used to work for an autonomous truck company, and when you factor in the cost of roads in addition to the development of the trucks, it makes absolutely no sense to do autonomous trucking when you could do trains. As a culture, we've been brainwashed not to fund trains. We collectively spend billions and billions on roads but would not dare spend money to build more tracks. It is shocking and…

Hm. I did a quick search on freight percentages, EU vs US and google gave me this snippet off the top hit. "46 percent of European freight goes by truck while only 11 percent goes by rail, while in the United States more than 40 percent goes by rail while just 30 percent goes on the highway." Seems US is doing pretty well on prioritising freight rail transport, despite brainwashing, at least compared to europe. Which…

That's 40% of "ton-miles" - trains disproportionately move heavy, cheap goods (i.e. aggregate, coal), which makes that number potentially misleading. The percentage of freight moved by rail by "value" is closer to 15% (trucking is ~65%).

https://www.bts.gov/newsroom/2017-north-american-freight-num...

https://www.aar.org/facts-figures#:~:text=Freight%20rail%20a....

Re: Autonomous trucking is harder than autonomous rideshare

#265

Post by mcmoor »

ramboldio wrote: post #116

I'm wondering why there is so little talk about changing road infrastructure to make self-driving easier to pull off. E.g. dedicated lanes for self driving or hand-off stations where human drivers can take over etc etc. Amid the massive potential upsides, any reasonable government would invest in measures that turn out to effectivley improve self-drivability of the respective national grid.

Well because if we're going that way, we might as well use trains, as lots of other comments unhelpfully mentioned. The strength of a car is supposed to be that they are more flexible in how to go from A to B and may even stomach less than ideal road conditions. Dedicated self driving infrastructure may negate those advantages.

Re: Autonomous trucking is harder than autonomous rideshare

#266

Post by ThunderSizzle »

AlexandrB wrote: post #260
beedeebeedee wrote: post #247

Build more railroads. (I used to work for an autonomous truck company, and when you factor in the cost of roads in addition to the development of the trucks, it makes absolutely no sense to do autonomous trucking when you could do trains. As a culture, we've been brainwashed not to fund trains. We collectively spend billions and billions on roads but would not dare spend money to build more tracks. It is shocking and…

I think the problem few people talk about is the small, in-city rail lines that used to exist that don't anymore. 100 years ago the city I live in had dedicated rail lines going to every major factory in the city - there was little need for last-mile trucking. AFAIK there are no western cities that are organized like this anymore, so the best you can do is deliver goods to a rail station and truck it from there - thi…

Same way you have excessive oversized lots/parking for 5 side-by-side fast food restaurants - zoning.

Just require distribution centers or warehouses to require a rail connection to the state's rail infrastructure to be approved for construction.

If no rail connection exists, then the state will negotiate who pays for what to extend the network to it.

Re: Autonomous trucking is harder than autonomous rideshare

#267

Post by ehnto »

capitainenemo wrote: post #258
beedeebeedee wrote: post #247

Build more railroads. (I used to work for an autonomous truck company, and when you factor in the cost of roads in addition to the development of the trucks, it makes absolutely no sense to do autonomous trucking when you could do trains. As a culture, we've been brainwashed not to fund trains. We collectively spend billions and billions on roads but would not dare spend money to build more tracks. It is shocking and…

Hm. I did a quick search on freight percentages, EU vs US and google gave me this snippet off the top hit. "46 percent of European freight goes by truck while only 11 percent goes by rail, while in the United States more than 40 percent goes by rail while just 30 percent goes on the highway." Seems US is doing pretty well on prioritising freight rail transport, despite brainwashing, at least compared to europe. Which…

So perhaps a priority could be to build more medium/high speed passenger rail, and get it off the freight lines?

Travelers and commuters win, cargo wins!

It is funny though, the US built it's current freight network in a comparatively low tech era, yet I doubt it could do it again in the current era due to funding and beauracracy.

Re: Autonomous trucking is harder than autonomous rideshare

#268

Post by obmelvin »

ederamen wrote: post #264
capitainenemo wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm. I did a quick search on freight percentages, EU vs US and google gave me this snippet off the top hit. "46 percent of European freight goes by truck while only 11 percent goes by rail, while in the United States more than 40 percent goes by rail while just 30 percent goes on the highway." Seems US is doing pretty well on prioritising freight rail transport, despite brainwashing, at least compared to europe. Which…

That's 40% of "ton-miles" - trains disproportionately move heavy, cheap goods (i.e. aggregate, coal), which makes that number potentially misleading. The percentage of freight moved by rail by "value" is closer to 15% (trucking is ~65%). https://www.bts.gov/newsroom/2017-north-american-freight-num... https://www.aar.org/facts-figures#:~:text=Freight%20rail%20a... .

I agree it's good to consider the whole picture, but ton-miles are probably the most important to consider given the increased diesel required to truck heavy loads, correct?

Re: Autonomous trucking is harder than autonomous rideshare

#269

Post by irrational »

ederamen wrote: post #264
capitainenemo wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm. I did a quick search on freight percentages, EU vs US and google gave me this snippet off the top hit. "46 percent of European freight goes by truck while only 11 percent goes by rail, while in the United States more than 40 percent goes by rail while just 30 percent goes on the highway." Seems US is doing pretty well on prioritising freight rail transport, despite brainwashing, at least compared to europe. Which…

That's 40% of "ton-miles" - trains disproportionately move heavy, cheap goods (i.e. aggregate, coal), which makes that number potentially misleading. The percentage of freight moved by rail by "value" is closer to 15% (trucking is ~65%). https://www.bts.gov/newsroom/2017-north-american-freight-num... https://www.aar.org/facts-figures#:~:text=Freight%20rail%20a... .

Why would one want to emphasize value over weight? If I load up a train with extremely expensive metals, jewels, artwork, etc. couldn’t I raise a countries rail by value measurement overnight?

Re: Autonomous trucking is harder than autonomous rideshare

#270

Post by ericmay »

ThunderSizzle wrote: post #266
AlexandrB wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem few people talk about is the small, in-city rail lines that used to exist that don't anymore. 100 years ago the city I live in had dedicated rail lines going to every major factory in the city - there was little need for last-mile trucking. AFAIK there are no western cities that are organized like this anymore, so the best you can do is deliver goods to a rail station and truck it from there - thi…

Same way you have excessive oversized lots/parking for 5 side-by-side fast food restaurants - zoning. Just require distribution centers or warehouses to require a rail connection to the state's rail infrastructure to be approved for construction. If no rail connection exists, then the state will negotiate who pays for what to extend the network to it.

Zoning is a problem, but it's not the only problem there. I think there are at least two more good ones we could discuss:

1. We actually do not have a market mechanic that exists in the United States that allows people to choose properly dense homes or neighborhoods because of a number of reasons. Search tools and things like that focus on metrics like square footage or number of bathrooms, and so people select for that "bigger is better" "more is better".

2. State departments of highways (they don't do anything besides that in most states) consist of individuals and contractor companies who have become adept and normal with building highways, and so all of the organizational inertia is on building anything that looks like a highway for the safety of drivers, to the detriment of everyone else. Since only highways get funded and built in most of the country, we end up having other companies like fast-food restaurants build in ways that cater to the driving demographic.

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