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Signs that it's time to leave a company

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Re: Signs that it's time to leave a company

#261

Post by Minor49er »

geodel wrote: post #115
doublerabbit wrote: post #2

Two years and six months. If you do not get any promotion, perks or increase of benefits during that time, your not going to get any ever. Waiting with the mindset of "maybe I will this year" will only cause you mental anguish, to the point you'll become disgruntled and end up shooting yourself in the foot. Why two years six months? It's takes three months of constant effort just to score an interview/new job and thr…

Jumping ship will always bring more money. Thats not true often. I have known so many people ended up in worse place after jumping.

Why did they make the jump then? The work environment was worth the trade-off?

Re: Signs that it's time to leave a company

#262

Post by jay_kyburz »

29athrowaway wrote: post #249
jay_kyburz wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2 week deadlines is way to long for a junior. I would be reading and discussing a juniors code every day. Even mid level programmers should be reporting progress every day. 10 working days of code is a hell of a lot of code.

The expectation of producing high volumes of code in short cycles is a red flag. Programming is not data entry. Programmers are not typists. Programmers make progress by creating building blocks that can be reused later. In 2024, many of those building blocks already exist in the form of libraries. If there's no reusability, everything is a special case, there's duplicate code, your program maps 1:1 to your data... t…

I think you misread my comment, or perhaps our definition of high volumes of code is different. Perhaps junior means something different.

I also suspect what I consider "good communication" you consider "micromanagement".

I like reading and talking about what my colleagues are doing every day. I'm interested. I learn new things, and sometimes I teach others a trick or two. Sometimes I tell them I don't like something and we agree to disagree.

Sometimes the requirements change, and that need to be discussed as well.

Sometimes I just like hearing and sharing stories about things that didn't work out. Yesterday I spend a whole day profiling to try and work out why we are leaking so much memory. I didn't work it out, but I can tell my colleagues what I tried and what I will try next.

The point I was trying to make is that a solid 8 hour work day is a lot of time, and I think everybody should have something interesting to say about what they did.

Re: Signs that it's time to leave a company

#263

Post by shiroiuma »

seti0Cha wrote: post #246
dougb5 wrote: post #114

"Politics and micromanagement have taken over, and HR processes take up far too much of everyone’s time." How is the HR the cause here? From the mismanagement that the author describes in the preceding paragraphs, it sounds like HR involvement was too little, not too much, because the problems are symptomatic of poorly trained managers. Too many engineers are unable to see the contradiction when they complain about p…

Hmm. I don't want to sound harsh, but I've been in the industry for nearly 3 decades and I've never been in a place where HR has been effective in helping train managers. I'm not saying it never happens, just that I haven't seen it. In fact, I wouldn't generally characterize HR departments as paragons of good management, so I'm not sure they are usually in a position to teach such things. Not their fault really, I do…

I think it's not just experience, it's partly about picking the right people, and not picking the wrong people. Some people are just not good managers, and no amount of training is going to make them a likeable person with good people skills needed to lead a team of people. Many places seem to want to pick someone who has the best technical skills, and then assume he'll magically become a great manager somehow.

I think sometimes HR gets blamed for stuff that's really upper management's fault. HR can try to patch over the bad decisions and deal with the interpersonal problems caused, but there's really not that much they can do because they have no real power, and the problems are caused by inept management. It's not HR's fault when upper management decides to promote people to management who clearly don't have the right personality for it, and that's not something HR can fix.

Re: Signs that it's time to leave a company

#264

Post by 29athrowaway »

jay_kyburz wrote: post #262
29athrowaway wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The expectation of producing high volumes of code in short cycles is a red flag. Programming is not data entry. Programmers are not typists. Programmers make progress by creating building blocks that can be reused later. In 2024, many of those building blocks already exist in the form of libraries. If there's no reusability, everything is a special case, there's duplicate code, your program maps 1:1 to your data... t…

I think you misread my comment, or perhaps our definition of high volumes of code is different. Perhaps junior means something different. I also suspect what I consider "good communication" you consider "micromanagement". I like reading and talking about what my colleagues are doing every day. I'm interested. I learn new things, and sometimes I teach others a trick or two. Sometimes I tell them I don't like something…

Make more granular tasks with clear acceptance criteria. If the developer doesn't understand the task, suggest writing a design document.

Build trust so that developers reach out to you as they get blocked.

Try to make people explain their approach in clear terms and discourage trial and error.

Re: Signs that it's time to leave a company

#265

Post by baby_souffle »

seti0Cha wrote: post #246
dougb5 wrote: post #114

"Politics and micromanagement have taken over, and HR processes take up far too much of everyone’s time." How is the HR the cause here? From the mismanagement that the author describes in the preceding paragraphs, it sounds like HR involvement was too little, not too much, because the problems are symptomatic of poorly trained managers. Too many engineers are unable to see the contradiction when they complain about p…

Hmm. I don't want to sound harsh, but I've been in the industry for nearly 3 decades and I've never been in a place where HR has been effective in helping train managers. I'm not saying it never happens, just that I haven't seen it. In fact, I wouldn't generally characterize HR departments as paragons of good management, so I'm not sure they are usually in a position to teach such things. Not their fault really, I do…

> In fact, I wouldn't generally characterize HR departments as paragons of good management, so I'm not sure they are usually in a position to teach such things

Exactly. HR is there to comply with certain regulations and otherwise minimize the number of lawsuits that the company is a party to.

Maybe if they're really good they might have a robust professional development program but that's certainly not a given!

Re: Signs that it's time to leave a company

#268

Post by throwaway5959 »

opportune wrote: post #13

Definitely feeling this at another FAANG I think there’s something about post-pandemic work in software that just isn’t working. I don’t think it’s just interest rates or a hiring downturn, nor immediate causes like founders leaving (because I see this sickness at most big tech companies these days). Personally, I believe that hybrid work is not going well. Fully remote teams are good, fully onsite teams are good. Wi…

I go into the office twice a week to sit on Zoom calls with coworkers around the country. I'm the only one on my team that has to do so because of where I live.

Re: Signs that it's time to leave a company

#269

Post by imiric »

pm90 wrote: post #215
imiric wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, I don't get this constant growth mentality that pervades tech companies. It seems more related to investors wanting to see an ever growing return on their investments than it being healthy for the company and its products. Can't a company reach an equilibrium where the right people are doing the right things, and everyone is happy with their role and compensation? Sure, people may leave and be replaced, and even…

There is a logic to the hyper growth style in software. Software products’ success are driven by network effects: the more users you have, the more features/integrations you support etc. And if you don’t dominate the market, a more hungry competitor absolutely will. Software products can be developed incredibly quickly. It is capitalism at its best (or worst, depending on how you see it). While it might be desirable…

In most service oriented companies, the number of users and even revenue can experience growth, while the number of employees remains relatively constant. This only stops being true at hyper scale, where maintenance problems become more difficult, but even then the employee growth doesn't have to be proportional.

What I find objectionable is the constant focus on unbounded growth, and that that is somehow a signal of a healthy company. This is usually the case in VC funded companies, which is not the only way to build a business. It might be the quickest and easiest, but it creates an environment where wrong incentives can thrive.

Re: Signs that it's time to leave a company

#270

Post by kelnos »

willhslade wrote: post #112
3737hdhd7372 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, something about working hybrid just feels like “why are we doing this?” It’s like an awkward inbetween I also don’t get why companies seem unphased about paying for a giant office that is empty the majority of the week

Not to peek behind the curtain, but it's pretty difficult to hold down 2 jobs when you need to physically be in the office 2 days a week. Which, if my anecdotal evidence in my circle is to be believed, that was definitely happening during the pandemic.

Companies need to give up on this whole "we own your time" thing. Work product should be all that matters. If an employee has two or three jobs, but is able to get their work done with the quality expected of them, that's all that should matter.

(Certainly there are exceptions; working for two competitors at the same time is not ok for hopefully obvious reasons.)

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