Things are about to get worse for generative AI • Hacker News Board

Re: Things are about to get worse for generative AI

#261

Post by joenot443 » Sat, Dec 30, 2023, 2:07 PM UTC

redcobra762 wrote: post #248

This operates similarly to importing an image into Photoshop. You can do whatever you like with images privately, or with gen AI, but the game ends when you try to use those images commercially. Not sure how this “gets worse” or better for anyone. The current state of things seems generally fine, and there’s a real possibility the courts see it that way too.

There are some images you can't import into Photoshop, most notably being scans of legal tender. This is for a pretty obvious and on-the-nose use case, but perhaps we'll see GenAI given similar guardrails.

Re: Things are about to get worse for generative AI

#262

Post by Paradigma11 » Sat, Dec 30, 2023, 2:08 PM UTC

sensanaty wrote: post #212

Paradigma11 wrote: post #206

So, whats the plan? Content creators/artists compete globally. The only thing harsh regulations will do is create an unlevel playing field where artists from noncaring countries will have big advantages over artists from the west, which will be driven into illegality to compete. In the end products will have to be classified anyway if they are infringing on copyright and/or were being built by an LLM. Most likely aut…

Wouldn't the ones in the West with presumably stronger copyright laws be in a better position, since the trillion dollar megacorporations using their works have to actually pay them, whereas in places where copyright is ignored those creators just get all their shit stolen without credit even being given?

Nothing will be stolen. Artists will use the same tools to check if their work is infringing that those companies and right holders have. There will be no Coca Cola logo/Super Mario Brother/CPO in that work.

The artists in the West wont get paid, because they wont get any jobs and those in other countries will. Maybe less, because they are more productive and the market is saturated, or maybe more demand will be created due to lower prices.

Re: Things are about to get worse for generative AI

#263

Post by pama » Sat, Dec 30, 2023, 2:09 PM UTC

leereeves wrote: post #254

pama wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan is already taking action regarding copyright law and the AI world is noticing: https://www.natlawreview.com/article/japanese-government-ide... https://www.cliffordchance.com/insights/resources/blogs/talk...

Neither of those sources describe any actions "gutting copyright law". They just say that officials met to discuss the issues.

I will update my language that mimicked the original comment. However it is not simple discussion. Here is a snippet related to Japan’s law, updated from ca 2018 with AI systems in mind, and clarified recently. I personally find it totally reasonable and support it.

“The use of copyrighted products or materials to train generative AI models would be prima facie copyright infringement under the Copyright Act, as it is a reproduction (fukusei) or other form of use of the copyrighted work. However, Article 30-4 of the Copyright Act stipulates that the use of copyrighted works by generative AI for learning purposes is allowed in principle.”

Re: Things are about to get worse for generative AI

#264

Post by fzeroracer » Sat, Dec 30, 2023, 2:10 PM UTC

zarzavat wrote: post #19

This for me does not make sense as a copyright violation. It’s like saying that Adobe is in trouble because you drew something infringing in Photoshop. If you prompt the model with the intention of creating something infringing by mentioning the name of the characters and the work, and you get something infringing out, then it’s you who have infringed the copyright, not the maker of the tool.

No, it's more akin to if Photoshop had a 'Mario' stamp which when used would stamp a random piece of Mario artwork from the games. Do you think this would be in violation of copyright?

Re: Things are about to get worse for generative AI

#265

Post by niemandhier » Sat, Dec 30, 2023, 2:12 PM UTC

Should not be a problem in the EU. Article 3 and 4 of the „ Copyright in the Digital Single Market“ Directive already regulate this.

Summary by Wolters Kluwer: […] Everyone else (including commercial ML developers) can only use works that are lawfully accessible and where the rightholders have not explicitly reserved use for text and data mining purposes.

AFAIK they are discussing something like a robot.txt to flag stuff as „not for training“. You will probably be expected to implement some safeguards and of course the end user will have to be careful in his use of the generated things.

Source at Kluwers: https://copyrightblog.kluweriplaw.com/2023/02/20/protecting-...

EU Legal Text: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dir/2019/790/oj

Re: Things are about to get worse for generative AI

#266

Post by kredd » Sat, Dec 30, 2023, 2:12 PM UTC

atq2119 wrote: post #171

kredd wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You, because you released the song and took the royalties? I don’t think every type of art can be compared against each other though, as there have been numerous precedents specifically for music, some for paintings, and some for photography with their own nuances. I still think people who are concerned that art related copyright will stifle generative AI should fight copyright laws directly. But that’s a harder pill…

Part of what's interesting here is that generative AI makes it very easy to unknowingly and unintentionally get on the wrong side of copyright law, which is something that wasn't really possible before. That's something which, IMHO, should be acknowledged by the law.

If you haven’t seen Mickey Mouse, Googled “cartoon mouse”, accidentally used it as inspiration, made T-Shirts, and sold them, Disney would be after you as well.

Re: Things are about to get worse for generative AI

#267

Post by FridgeSeal » Sat, Dec 30, 2023, 2:12 PM UTC

Intox wrote: post #12

Or... things are about to get worse for copyright holders. I don't see any developped country pressing the brake on AGI in the near future to protect a few copyright holders from getting "stolen" in hypothetic scenarios.

Yeah, I really don’t see everyone else giving up here because “funny magic parrot box” can write some mid-tier high school essays.

LLM people are really starting to veer into crypto-bro territory with the evangelising about how they’re the best thing since sliced bread and transistors.

Re: Things are about to get worse for generative AI

#268

Post by xtracto » Sat, Dec 30, 2023, 2:13 PM UTC

Intox wrote: post #12

Or... things are about to get worse for copyright holders. I don't see any developped country pressing the brake on AGI in the near future to protect a few copyright holders from getting "stolen" in hypothetic scenarios.

Good. It's time to abolish copyright. Society must create distributed, open and uncensorable AI models that can synthesize humanity's knowledge so that it can be used by anyone.

Sorry if your 40 hour work won't pay you $10 bucks a month forever. That's the case for most of the rest of us: we produce for 40 hours, we get paid for those 40 hours, regardless of what we do.

Welcome to the club!!

Re: Things are about to get worse for generative AI

#269

Post by throwoutway » Sat, Dec 30, 2023, 2:13 PM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #89

rco8786 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Likewise, how difficult is it to just use descriptive tools to describe Mario-like images [1] and then remove these results from anyone prompting for "video game plumber"? This approaches impossibility at scale.

Trademarks already include text descriptions and images of the item being trademarked. This is already in the USPTO database.

Using generic text will end poorly. I predict a future where 99 of 100 requests result in Photoshop AI saying "I'm sorry, I can't do that". Google for silly trademarks. Facebook trademarked the word "Home". Star wars trademarked breathing under a mask.

Re: Things are about to get worse for generative AI

#270

Post by sanderjd » Sat, Dec 30, 2023, 2:13 PM UTC

samus wrote: post #204

sanderjd wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure they're interested in it, but I'm uncertain that they view it as a promising and critical enough capability to push for a higher priority when weighed against other interests. For instance, neither of your examples - surveillance or automated drones - has anything to do with AGI. They don't need LLMs to do mass digital surveillance; they already do that and were doing it for decades before LLMs were a twinkl…

Wiretapping vast amounts of data on the internet is quite cool, but actually sifting through all that data is the really difficult part. Right now intelligence services are probably looking at lots of false positives and lots of dots they can't connect because the evidence is just too dispersed for a human or a current-generation system to make sense. LLMs could enable them to make the analysis more targeted and effe…

This is not the new capability that LLMs have pioneered. It's true that it is difficult to sift out signal from the noise of a vast data trove, but it is difficult in a way that people have been getting extremely good at since the late 90s. What you're describing is a Google-level capability, and that's truly a very complex thing not to be downplayed. But it's a capability that we've had and been honing for decades now.

I'm sure language models and transformer techniques will be (or more likely: already are) an important part of the contemporary systems that do this stuff. But I'm skeptical that they care much about GPT-4 itself (or other general models).

I'm not skeptical about whether they think it is useful and an important capability to incorporate ML techniques into their systems, I'm unsure how much utility they see in general (the "G" in AGI) models.