The pro-Israel information war • Hacker News Board

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#261

Post by EvgeniyZh » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 9:38 PM UTC

master_crab wrote: post #13

jdross wrote: post #7

Pro-Palestinian views outrank Pro-Israeli online by around 36 to 1 on TikTok and 8 to 1 on other online platforms. https://twitter.com/antgoldbloom/status/1721561226151612602 If anything the skew within the platforms is to prioritize pro-palestinian views https://twitter.com/committeeonccp/status/173279243496103143... It also seems like these platforms create (rather than support) anti-Israeli views: https://twitter.…

Anti-semitism in and of itself is unequivocally wrong. But conflating anti-Israeli views with anti-Semitic views does a disservice to Jews and Palestinians alike.

Criticizing the actions of Israel is not anti-semitic, and many Israelis and Jews are critical of the Israeli government and its actions (even more than usual during the ongoing political crisis). Many of the critics I see lack nuance (basically, "rooting for the underdog"), but that's a different problem. The problem is complicated, and there is no simple solution (some kind of two-state may work after many years).

But chants like "from the river to the sea" (meaning destroying Jewish country) and calls for an intifada (de facto violence against Jews) are anti-semitic. Supporting Hamas, whose goal is to kill as many Jews as possible, or saying Israel shouldn't defend itself against Hamas attacks is anti-semitic (Hamas is also bad for Gazans, but that's another story). I can go on and on. People holding these views may hold them not because they hate Jews (for example, I don't think that people removing posters of kidnapped Israelis necessarily hate them), but the result is all the same. There is also obvious anti-semitism unrelated to Israel, like attacking synagogues, drawing stars of David on Jewish houses, etc., but that's not what I'm talking about.

And the most vocal anti-Israelis are naturally the most extreme ones and usually include some of the stuff I mentioned. As a result, people call out anti-semitism, usually not referring to anti-Israeli critics you are talking about.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#262

Post by mrtksn » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 9:38 PM UTC

oezi wrote: post #244

mrtksn wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She probably destroyed her career with this, since acted way beyond her limits. I still wonder, was she overcompensating due to her being German? It's very normal for EU to be pro-Israel, that's EU's official position and IMHO it's the correct one but EU's position is also pro-Two states solution and EU has significant humanitarian missions and political support for many of the Palestinian demands. Some EU countries…

> the Zionist aspirations What has the current conflict to do with Zionist aspirations?

Sorry, I'm not going to bite that. Too complex of an issue to go over what happens why.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#263

Post by anigbrowl » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 9:38 PM UTC

azinman2 wrote: post #76

sertbdfgbnfgsd wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pro-Palestinian views outrank Pro-Israeli online by around 36 to 1 on TikTok and 8 to 1 on other online platforms. > If anything the skew within the platforms is to prioritize pro-palestinian views. That platforms prioritize one over the other is just one possible explanation. An alternative explanation is that more people already have those views. And it's dishonest to present one explanation and omit the other. N…

And where do you think that comes from? Some coherent well researched culturally deep understanding of history and the current status of things by the entire population? Of course not, it’s propaganda. There are ethnic conflicts worldwide that often have more bloodshed, many occurring simultaneously right now, but this gets all the rhetoric and attention.

I think you're overlooking the fact that it's located in an area that has religious significance for Jews, Christians, and Muslims, which most other conflicts don't. Hundreds of millions of people believe in the idea of a supreme deity who takes a close personal interest in this specific part of the world.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#264

Post by unholythree » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 9:38 PM UTC

dml2135 wrote: post #145

rushingcreek wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s more complicated than that. Criticizing Israeli settlements in the West Bank is not antisemitic. But suggesting that Israel has no right to exist as a Jewish state is antisemitic as it implies ethnic cleansing. Both are arguably criticisms of the Israeli government.

Why is saying Israeli should not be a Jewish state any different than saying the US should not be a Christian state?

Well Jews are a cultural and ethnic group as well; so saying Israel shouldn’t be a Jewish state is similar to saying Japan shouldn’t be a Japanese state. It was explicitly established to create (or some would say reclaimed) a Jewish homeland. It’s Jewishness is central to it’s raison d'être.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#265

Post by wolverine876 » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 9:38 PM UTC

ristlane wrote: post #127

Scubabear68 wrote: post #91

I have no skin in this game. What I have seen is a confusion (perhaps intentional) between anti-semitism, and protesting Israel’s behavior since the Hamas attack in October. Criticizing Israel’s response is not anti-Semitism- it is literally just criticizing the response.

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I've heard this claim, but what is your personal reasoning? It's an oddly narrow condition. Isn't 'prejudice against Israel' more general and effective? Enumerating prejudice in every possible form seems impossible and impractical.

FWIW, it's included in a definition from the last ~20 years that is favored by pro-Israel groups.

Possibly, it's just rhetorical and diversionary, putting critics on the defensive to carefully defend and establish all speech as non-anti-Jewish, which diverts time and attention.

I think those tactics work for Israel when the issues aren't so stark and prominent, and so few people see the critique of the critics (i.e., few see the accusation that the speech is antisemitic). With everyone watching closely, the apparent rhetorical tactics become noticeable.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#266

Post by sabarn01 » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 9:39 PM UTC

mandmandam wrote: post #235

sabarn01 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an ocean of injustice in the world and this one issue causes more anger than many that are equally abhorrent.

Are there actually many equally abhorrent issues right now? I can think of like, 2, and they're both involving the exact same actors. Doctors were forced at gunpoint to leave premature babies to rot at Al Nasr hospital. And you're surprised that the world is horrified?! Journalists and healthcare staff and schools have been targeted at a shocking rate. Civil infrastructure and historic churches blown up without the t…

South Sudan, Libya, Myanmar, North Korea, Syria, Venezuela, Ukraine/Russia

There is no end to this confit regardless. It will go on as you have 2 groups with claims on the same land. Wars are won when the loser accepts defeat I don't see that ever happening. There have been multiple attempts at a negotiated solution like the Peel commision, the 1948 UN partition, or the oslo accords. All have been rejected.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#267

Post by ARandumGuy » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 9:39 PM UTC

matrix87 wrote: post #198

ARandumGuy wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel and pro-Israel commentators have spent a lot of time and effort trying to ingrain the idea that Israel == Jews. Of course, not all Jews are Israeli, and not all Israelis are Jews. And there are many Jewish Israelis who are critical of the actions of the Israeli government. Of course, a lot of criticism of Israel is rooted in antisemitism. But saying all criticism of Israel is antisemitic deflects legitimate cr…

> But saying all criticism of Israel is antisemitic deflects legitimate criticism Who is saying this? All I've heard are people on one side insisting that people are saying this, sounds like a straw man

The Wikipedia page on "Criticism of Israel" [1] has an extensive section on critics of Israel accused of antisemitism, if you'd like a good starting point.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Israel#Suppressio...

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#268

Post by xkekjrktllss » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 9:39 PM UTC

toss1 wrote: post #232

sertbdfgbnfgsd wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pro-Palestinian views outrank Pro-Israeli online by around 36 to 1 on TikTok and 8 to 1 on other online platforms. > If anything the skew within the platforms is to prioritize pro-palestinian views. That platforms prioritize one over the other is just one possible explanation. An alternative explanation is that more people already have those views. And it's dishonest to present one explanation and omit the other. N…

If you want to start counting drivers, there are at least three 1) The algorithms of the platforms 2) The disinformation / astroturfing / asymetric warfare, driven from Russia, Iran, CCP, and many other 'interested parties' 3) The actual organic opinions The drivers are in about that order of force. The point of #2 is to make it appear organic, so people can make the argument that 'it's just people's opinion', even w…

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Re: The pro-Israel information war

#269

Post by VerminOctopus1 » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 9:39 PM UTC

odiroot wrote: post #116

That's a really... weird article to read. It's like reading a fantasy book about another universe. Or a desperate attempt at "inception". Reddit, at least, seems to be (rightfully or not) dominated by a strongly anti-Israel narrative. Even the "great" BBC is not willing to call a spade a spade.

When the crisis was initially unfolding, I followed a few of the major subreddits, and it was entirely pro-Israel. It was kind of shocking how uniformly pro-Israel the comments were.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#270

Post by pphysch » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 9:39 PM UTC

There's so much (intentional) confusion around basic terms in this info war.

Anti-Semitism, "antisemitism", anti-Judaism, anti-Zionism, and anti-Israel are all different concepts.

Semitic peoples include both Jews and Arabs. To erase the latter (as Zionism does) and replace them with Europeans is by definition anti-Semitic, therefore Zionism is anti-Semitic.

To address that, Zionism coined the term "antisemitism" as a synonym for "anti-Zionism".

Being pro-2-state-solution is pro-Israel (and pro-Palestine, pro-Semitic) but anti-Zionist.

Anti-Zionism is also not anti-Judaism, because there are many non-Jews that identify as Zionists, e.g. from Winston Churchill to Joe Biden and Donald Trump.

(There are also distinctions between ethnic and religious Judaism)

All this said, there are unfortunately real anti-Semitic, anti-Jew, anti-Israel individuals and groups out there that also leverage this confusion.

This does not take away from the fact that anti-Zionism is an extremely sound moral and political position, akin to anti-Nazism and other anti-totalitarianisms.