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The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

kiwihellenist.blogspot.com

261–270 of 298 posts

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#261

This may be a bit un-orthodox, but I think there is some sense in Trinity if you interpret it properly: "Father" is the concrete DNA that creates each of us. "Son" is each individual that manifests that DNA. "Holy Ghost" is the whole INFORMATION in the DNA-population which gives rise to different concrete DNA strands. They are all manifestations of the same thing.

You're trying to find a contrived scientific notion of trinitarianism, which is a belief that is built out of the long history of Judaism and Christianity. How does this make any sense? If you don't believe Jesus was an actual person, or that God the Father gave stone tablets to Moses, what does the trinity even mean to you? And if you do believe in these things, how is "DNA" a satisfying explanation for the Father w…

Apologia is all exactly like that.

The answer to "who are you trying to fool?" is in every case the same: himself, and anybody along for the ride. The usual hope is that, even when he cannot fool himself, he might fool (i.e., "save") somebody else.

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#262
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In context, the new believers were frequently put out of their homes and sent destitute, so being willing to give it all up was a requirement. That said, there isn't a whole lot of evidence what is meant here and a rope makes more sense than a camel, because a rich man can become poorer by giving it up just as a rope can be made thinner (by taking away most of the fibers), whereas a camel just can't manage at all. It…

The myth of persecution was always central to the doctrine, but the sheer volume of wholesale fabrication that evidently had to be cooked up in support of it easily demonstrates its falsehood.

That's nonsense. Plenty of persecution is well-documented.

Nero had Christians torn apart by dogs (though not in the Coliseum), there was the torture and persecution of the martyrs of Lyon, Diocletian enacted his “Great Persecution” in 303, etc.

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#263
post #248
post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, Thomas - lots of dispute about when it was written, and the anthology style makes timing even harder to determine, while increasing the chance it was modified over the centuries. I recalled something about the intrigue over some parchments from this collection, and found this recent story [0] about the alleged illegal sale, recovery, translation efforts, and (this year) publication of some fragments. One of the…

Yes - before I go on, please note this is not my area of expertise, but just something I am interested in. I haven't seen anywhere which suggests that Thomas is Q, but to me if a book of biblical quotations is hypothesised when none has previously been found, and forty-five years later a book of biblical quotations is discovered (which, despite uncertainty about its timing, certainly dates to at least a millennium be…

No, that sounds fairly reasonable - not necessarily the 'hypothesised and then discovered, therefore credible' (that may be survivorship bias), but certainly the potential for that document to be 'Q'.

Given 'Q source' (tautology, forgive me) was a conceptual construct to try to explain a part of the synoptic problem, there's no reason to believe it was necessarily a single document in the modern sense, or that earlier versions (that we don't have) may be subsets of things we actually subsequently got our hands on.

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just make it easy: there is an obvious market gap. It should be highly profitable: the market segment is rich old gullible Christians. I can see 3 levels: 1: camel slurry as a service. An Australian company (you get paid to cull feral camels there - extra profit) - paid for at a dedicated website - with a personalized certificate mailed for completion. Easy. 2: personalized. You travel to the machine in a suitable co…

OK how about industrial scales of salvation? Here’s what I propose: 1. Switch to camel meat farming 2. Route all sewers through the eye of a giant needle en route to water treatment 3. Receive eternal blessings every morning if you took your fiber the previous evening Sorry vegetarians and vegans, you’re still at risk. You’ll have to use messy camel slurries or just take your chances.

You're forgetting that there's a secondary market for these things, similar to how subsistence farming is largely gone in lieu of the supermarket. Just purchase a share of camel slurry, and you're solid.

Actually, now that I mention it, that seems to be quite a bit like Jesus' problem with the currency conversion specialists in the temple: commoditization of something meaningful can lead to evil.

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#265

It's interesting to me that the focus of these verses has always been on the "impossibility" of rich men entering the kingdom of Heaven. When 2 verses later it says with God all things are possible (in reference to what He just said about the eye of the needle). In my opinion I think Jesus Christ makes it pretty clear throughout the Gospels especially in His sermon on the mount that there are diverse paths to Hell an…

This may be taboo to discuss here, but the wording could phenomenologically transfer to "the love of commoditization and scalability of meaningful things that give power is the root of all evil".

Enjoying a beautiful sunset is an enhancement of the soul, but enjoying 10^100 identical sunsets has accrued enough diminishing return to be trivial to the soul.

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#266
post #200
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, there's a LOT of inaccuracies between the gospels and trusted historical documents - the bottom section of rationalwiki's Gospel page [0] has some examples - though these are more historical than geographical. I was probably thinking of the author of Mark who had his Jesus doing the roundabout trip via Sidon towards the Sea of Galilee, or the same author having Jesus stepping out of his boat and into a region th…

From page 72[ed]: > And on the other hand, if Mark received his Gos- pel from Peter, why is it that the other Gospels have more anecdotes about Peter, including for example, Je- sus telling him, “You are Peter the rock, and upon this rock I will build my church”? Would Peter himself for- get such an incident? It gets worse. Mark shows no un- derstanding of the social situation in the Holy Land, making numerous errors…

> I'm afraid this is just not informative at all, and doesn't give me a good impression of the rest of the book.

Coincidentally, this fairly describes the reaction of a sceptic reading the book of Mark.

Anyway, you quoted entirely the wrong section, given your earlier question.

> "“from the region of Tyre, and went by way of Sidon towards the Sea of Galilee, in the region of the Decapolis,” a trip 50 miles out of his way, on foot!"

Someone going from Cambridge to London via Manchester .. would take the train, or a bus, or drive.

As noted, this was a walking journey. It could be hand-waved away, but aren't you curious why someone would mention an 80km detour but not give the reader any tidbits about why, or what went on in Sidon that was worth a) the massive detour & effort, and b) mentioning?

I agree, however, that this is not, by itself, a compellingly damning piece of evidence. I hope you don't think it was meant as such.

> But it gets worse. There's absolutely no detail here.

Again, you're echoing the sentiment of people reading these works and wondering why there's no source citations, why the authors don't identify themselves, why there's no record of dates, why there's no critical analysis offered.

That book I pointed you at contains a lengthy bibliography, and in fairness was intended to provide an overview of the field.

There are certainly much more detailed works - including that author's follow-up trilogy Mything In Action, which I can highly recommend.

Obviously Price, Carrier, et al, provide a wealth of very detailed analysis, if you are indeed genuinely interested.

> I've never seen anything to make me think it's worth spending more of my time digging into.

Are you perhaps strongly invested in a particular position on this subject?

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#267
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is a major point in the gospels and one of the things that was subversive at the time that's a bit lost on modern audiences. At the time, the prevailing belief was that good things happens to good people, and bad things happen to bad people. This is illustrated in John 9, where the disciples ask Jesus about a blind man: His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born b…

> Yes, this is a major point in the gospels and one of the things that was subversive at the time that's a bit lost on modern audiences. At the time, the prevailing belief was that good things happens to good people, and bad things happen to bad people. And yet, here we are again. The prosperity gospel which a large chunk of not only American but also global evangelicals (specifically the pentecostal subset) subscrib…

Prosperity gospel is a fringe belief, even among evangelicals. It's definitely real, but the amount of attention it gets on the Internet is disproportionate to its real-world influence. From Wikipedia:

> Mainstream evangelicalism has consistently opposed prosperity theology as heretical[37] and prosperity ministries have frequently come into conflict with other Christian groups, including those within the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements.[39] Critics, such as Evangelical pastor Michael Catt, have argued that prosperity theology has little in common with traditional Christian theology.[83] Prominent evangelical leaders, such as Rick Warren,[9] Ben Witherington III,[9] and Jerry Falwell,[84] have harshly criticized the movement, sometimes denouncing it as heretical.[9]

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume most everyone here on their free and unpaid time is here for entertainment purposes. Why waste time reading an article if the title already provides enough entertainment for a creative dialog?

I'm not going to pretend that I read the article every time. But if I'm going to point out something I think the article is missing or accuse the title of being false, yeah I'll check the article first.

In my opinion a title should properly reflect the compressed contents of the article accurately and in full. If the title is just a setup for answering a question we all already probably knew anyway then it is simply click bait.

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#269

In Aramaic, the language Jesus spoke, the word for camel is gamlo (ܓܐܡܠܐ) while the word for rope is gamla (ܓܐܡܠܥ). Mixing these up would be an easy mistake to make. Matthew and Luke both took some info from Mark but also took some info from the Q source and their own sources. Since all three have this same wording, it is likely the error came through Mark.

To use the expression "the language Jesus spoke" is to imply that a Jesus actually existed and said things quoted. But the best current scholarship today demonstrates persuasively that no walking, talking Jesus ever existed (never mind was executed extra-judicially). If any did, nothing he said found its way into the New Testament. Certainly, neither Paul writing in the 50s, nor the Roman church elders who wrote 1 Cl…

Why would someone refute a kooky YouTube video in a peer reviewed medium? This does not seem like a good proof of the factual nature of the YouTube kook.

There’s a guy at the end of my street who lives in a culvert and screams obscenities. I never saw him refuted in JAMA, though, so I guess by your logic he must be right?

No opinion on whether you’re right about Jesus or the Bible; just saying you might want to think about your yardstick.

Re: The camel, the rope, and the needle's eye

#270
post #266
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From page 72[ed]: > And on the other hand, if Mark received his Gos- pel from Peter, why is it that the other Gospels have more anecdotes about Peter, including for example, Je- sus telling him, “You are Peter the rock, and upon this rock I will build my church”? Would Peter himself for- get such an incident? It gets worse. Mark shows no un- derstanding of the social situation in the Holy Land, making numerous errors…

> I'm afraid this is just not informative at all, and doesn't give me a good impression of the rest of the book. Coincidentally, this fairly describes the reaction of a sceptic reading the book of Mark. Anyway, you quoted entirely the wrong section, given your earlier question. > "“from the region of Tyre, and went by way of Sidon towards the Sea of Galilee, in the region of the Decapolis,” a trip 50 miles out of his…

> Are you perhaps strongly invested in a particular position on this subject?

I'm strongly enough invested in the truth to ask you for references, read them, and engage critically with them. I can honestly say that if I was wrong, I would want to know. I've even thought carefully about what kind of evidence could be presented to me to convince me that I was wrong. Can you say the same?

> Again, you're echoing the sentiment of people reading these works and wondering why there's no source citations, why the authors don't identify themselves, why there's no record of dates, why there's no critical analysis offered.

The difference is, Mark isn't a 21st century skeptic claiming to represent scholarship. He's a first-century author trying to write down what's happened for common people to read. The proper thing to compare him to is other books of his time to which we give credence.

> As noted, this was a walking journey. It could be hand-waved away, but aren't you curious why someone would mention an 80km detour but not give the reader any tidbits about why, or what went on in Sidon that was worth a) the massive detour & effort, and b) mentioning?

The key thing here is that Tyre and Sidon are "foreign" places in the same region. You make a big deal about how far away they are, but almost everywhere in the New Testament they're lumped together. For example, in the Matthew version of this story (15:21-29), Matthew says, he "withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon". It then tells the story, followed by "Jesus left there and went along the Sea of Galilee". Mark, on the other hand, says "Jesus... went to the vicinity of Tyre"; then tells the story, and then says "Jesus left Tyre and went through Sidon, down to the Sea of Galilee".

Nobody would at all wonder why, if I was in Paris, I decided I wanted to visit Lyon first before returning to London; or why if I was in Manchester I'd visit the Lake District before returning to Cambridge. Mark mentions Sidon for the same reason Matthew mentions Sidon: they think it's important to let us know that Jesus wasn't stuck south of Galilee, and/or that opposition at some point literally drove him out of the country. He doesn't tell any stories about Sidon for the same reason Matthew doesn't: nothing that happened there was worth the space on the scroll. That he went there, not what he did there, was the point. If anything, the fact that Mark feels it necessary to add a chronology (Tyre first then Sidon) when he could well have glossed over it like Matthew did, is a small amount of evidence that he's trying to be more accurate.

A more evidentiary approach here would be to look at other uses of the word "dia" (the word translated "by way of" in that verse) in ancient Greek. If other ancient sources exclusively use "ek X dia Y eis Z" (from X through Y to Z -- those are the prepositions used in that verse) to mean that Y is between / on the way from X to Z, then that lends credence to the "Mark is bad at geography" theory. If we have other examples of that pattern being for large-ish detours, then it undermines the "Mark is bad at geography" theory.

> That book I pointed you at contains a lengthy bibliography, and in fairness was intended to provide an overview of the field.

What you'd normally do in this case is to include the most convincing or most representative pieces of evidence. If among the top bits of evidence against Mark are, "He didn't include the story of how Peter got his name", and "He said Jesus went from Tyre to Galilee through Sidon", it gives me a lot more confidence in Mark.

I mean, sure, I'll take a quick look at Price et al; but my experience so far leads me to expect more like this -- people eager to find something to quibble with, uncritically making large lists of things that don't really mean anything.

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