Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaScript • Hacker News Board

Re: Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaScript

#261

Post by mjburgess » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 3:13 PM UTC

Obscurity4340 wrote: post #177

EvanAnderson wrote: post #30

There's a product here that's been waiting to happen for awhile. I've been anticipating somebody cross-compiling another browser engine to WASM but this works, too. Deliver your site only to the "inner browser" (that the user has no control over because it's heavily obfuscated and tricked-out with anti-debugging code) and you eliminate all ad blockers. Throw some DNS-over-HTTPS w/ certificate pinning in for good meas…

I need someone much smarter and more willing to engage on this issue to explain this remark or set it straight, pretty please and pretty-thank-you in advance

Think of the browser as an operating system, and a web page as an app. If that app is another browser, custom built, it could be built to prevent adblockers.

Inasmuch as any app, eg., a video player, can include DRM or otherwise lock things down.

This is feasible, but its unclear how successful it would be -- it would just start an arms race to hack it.

Re: Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaScript

#262

Post by Intralexical » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 3:16 PM UTC

BoiledCabbage wrote: post #191

matheusmoreira wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it will mean the end of high-quality free services So be it. If those services can't survive without ads and surveillance capitalism, they don't deserve to exist.

An argument I read that has merit is that ad supported services does democratize the web for developing countries. If for example youtube with all of its information or even Google search required a subscription, suddenly a lot of people who make significantly less than the average for the developed world would no longer be able to access those resources. I still hate the ad surveillance everywhere, but it was a poin…

> An argument I read that has merit is that ad supported services does democratize the web for developing countries.

This argument definitely gets pushed now and then, but seeing you write it out actually made me realize it seems like a red herring.

Ads are priced, bid, bought, and sold based on their expected return on investment.

If lower-income countries would be unable to sustain a public website because of being unable to pay for subscriptions, wouldn't they also be unable to sustain that website because ads sold there should have lower prices?

Re: Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaScript

#263

Post by alreadyhere2 » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 3:18 PM UTC

EvanAnderson wrote: post #30

There's a product here that's been waiting to happen for awhile. I've been anticipating somebody cross-compiling another browser engine to WASM but this works, too. Deliver your site only to the "inner browser" (that the user has no control over because it's heavily obfuscated and tricked-out with anti-debugging code) and you eliminate all ad blockers. Throw some DNS-over-HTTPS w/ certificate pinning in for good meas…

It's happened already: https://earth.google.com is a Flutter app that's entirely drawn in a canvas. Its accessibility sucks. Things that you use to be able to copy and paste like names of places or phone numbers etc you no longer can. It's horrifying. Accessibility or translation extensions have nothing to look at.

It's also the new flash since like flash it's just a bucket of pixels. Like when say VisionOS comes out and their browser has made tweaks to all the HTML form elements so they work well with finger gestures in the air but of course here this page is just a block of pixels so it will have the wrong interface for the device.

Re: Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaScript

#264

Post by Intralexical » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 3:26 PM UTC

cplusplusfellow wrote: post #173

teruakohatu wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm confused how the "inner browser" meaningfully helps you accomplish this. Right not it is not hard to write an adblocker, just block network requests and DOM elements (regardless of whom hosts of proxies them). A browser in a browser would make blocking dom as hard as attaching a debugger and manipulating a price that has been hardened. Network requests may still be able to be blocked, but it is going to make ad…

Would be amazing for advertisers but no users would visit the site.

I can't wait until this Browser-on-JS/WASM-on-Canvas loads an IFrame from a site that also has its own Browser-on-JS/WASM-on-Canvas.

Hell, the inner IFrame is probably going to get around IFrame recursion and domain rules too.

We're going to eventually end up with IFrame fork bombs, and IFrame topologies that cannot be meaningfully mapped to Euclidean space (amongst all the other privacy, user control, etc. concerns, of course).

Re: Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaScript

#265

Post by bluescrn » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 3:27 PM UTC

krapp wrote: post #260

wasyl wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that logic you could call regular ad blocking censorship, because it does exactly the same thing as parent described, only without AI and less effectively. I see a difference between algorithmic feeds that I have no control over that are designed to boost the companies goals, and an opt-in tool (hopefully an open one) running locally and modifying the content presentation to remove things I don't want in the first…

Ad blocking is censorship. Censorship that many people, myself included, agree with (I don't believe all censorship is harmful) but it is clearly censorship. But the real problem is assuming everything an AI blocks will be an "ad." Why is this the only instance where the slippery slope doesn't apply? This is different than a normal ad blocker that uses specific heuristics to block specific elements - an AI will be em…

It’s only censorship if you stop other people reading/consuming the censored content.

Choosing to block ads is more like choosing to not read a book. Or skipping a boring chapter to get to the action.

Re: Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaScript

#266

Post by Intralexical » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 3:31 PM UTC

alreadyhere2 wrote: post #263

EvanAnderson wrote: post #30

There's a product here that's been waiting to happen for awhile. I've been anticipating somebody cross-compiling another browser engine to WASM but this works, too. Deliver your site only to the "inner browser" (that the user has no control over because it's heavily obfuscated and tricked-out with anti-debugging code) and you eliminate all ad blockers. Throw some DNS-over-HTTPS w/ certificate pinning in for good meas…

It's happened already: https://earth.google.com is a Flutter app that's entirely drawn in a canvas. Its accessibility sucks. Things that you use to be able to copy and paste like names of places or phone numbers etc you no longer can. It's horrifying. Accessibility or translation extensions have nothing to look at. It's also the new flash since like flash it's just a bucket of pixels. Like when say VisionOS comes out…

Hell, even Google Docs suite is just one big Canvas these days, last I checked.

Re: Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaScript

#267

Post by carlosjobim » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 4:00 PM UTC

chii wrote: post #140

bhaney wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ad companies would get approximately every website in the world to use this technique I really doubt it, but if that did happen then I could simplify my filter list to just a single wildcard. Silver lining.

and stop participating in online society? Are you going to stop buying from ecommerce sites, viewing youtube, and reading your gmail? I think it's an inevitable future tbh. The users have lost - they just dont know it yet. Google's WEI [1] is their first foray into this, and i dont doubt there will be future iterations they try to push through. The browser-in-browser is but one alternative idea. [1] https://en.wikipe…

> Are you going to stop buying from ecommerce sites

E-commerce is the online sector with the highest incentives to deliver an ad-free and user-friendly experience, because they actually want to sell products. If you're selling something you should do everything possible to get out of the user's way and let them make a purchase. This includes having your site load and operate extremely fast, not using cookies and not using advertising. This also includes having the highest quality content on your page, so that users find what they're looking for and to build enough trust that they want to do business with you.

As for YouTube there's premium and for e-mail the ad-free and spy-free options are legion.

If we exclude the online content that is free and without ads, the online content that we can pay for and the online content that we can pirate, that's already a huge chunk of what is valuable on the internet. So I don't think the ad-fueled internet has the upper hand here.

Re: Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaScript

#268

Post by matheusmoreira » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 4:16 PM UTC

panta wrote: post #256

matheusmoreira wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not censorship if I control the AI and can turn it off at any time.

Much more powerful entities are going to be in control. The "beauty" of AI is that it's a black box, and you can't directly check its biases. Guess who will win the people control battle? (If we are speaking of the illusion of control, it's a different matter of course)

If I suspect the AI is compromised, I'll turn it off or choose a different one.

Re: Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaScript

#269

Post by lelanthran » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 4:19 PM UTC

matheusmoreira wrote: post #257

lelanthran wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I consider it to be a form of mind rape when they forcibly insert their brands and products into my mind without my consent. We aren't talking about a Clockwork Orange type of scneario. You're trivialising real rape when you refer to easily avoidable online-advertising. Your mind "rape" is in no way or form analogous to rape.

Rape is violation of the body without consent. My mind is part of my body. I feel violated.

> Rape is violation of the body without consent.

No, it isn't. It's defined in terms of penetration. Both legal definitions and dictionary definitions.

If your argument depends on a word having a different meaning from the dictionary definition, it's your argument that is wrong, not the dictionary.

> My mind is part of my body. I feel violated.

Violation is not rape.

Re: Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaScript

#270

Post by matheusmoreira » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 4:22 PM UTC

Intralexical wrote: post #259

matheusmoreira wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in order to make this service a reality it must be local Absolutely. AI should be local and under our control at all times. Local models that run on our computers is something I want very much. > What we need is data poisoning. Agreed. Anything that reduces their profits is valid. Ideally to zero or into the negatives. Their "concerns" are irrelevant.

> Agreed. Anything reduces their profits is valid. Ideally to zero or into the negatives. Their "concerns" are irrelevant. It would be better to produce a more profitable business model that doesn't incentivize or benefit from being shitty/harmful. "They" can then either adapt and cut it out with their shenanigans, or die out outcompeted by companies that do.

The best way to pressure them to come up with alternative business models is to completely invalidate their current business model.

They're virtuous capitalists who got to where they are via pure genius and will to power, right? Adapt or die. And they better not cry about it or beg the government for intervention.