Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

appleinsider.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

261–270 of 1001 posts

Re: EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

#261

Post by kibwen »

madeofpalk wrote: post #187
nunez wrote: post #166

Fucking good. It's bullshit that you can only run Safari on iOS or that the App Store is the only store you can use. Yes, I understand the security implications of a third-party browser having deeper integrations into the OS and potential battery life concerns. I also don't care. I want to run Firefox on my phone. The actual thing. With containers and extensions. Let Safari compete on the merits. I want the choice of…

Alternate web browsers are allowed on iOS. The rendering engine is a boring, unimportant implementation detail that users do not care for. The success of Chrome for iOS is proof that rendering engine doesn't matter for diversity.

> The rendering engine is a boring, unimportant implementation detail that users do not care for.

Then I'm sure users won't mind when I'm allowed to install my own rendering engine on my own computer, that I own, because I bought it, and, therefore, own it.

Re: EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

#262

Post by eps »

RIMR wrote: post #235
cmdli wrote: post #184

I, for one, do not look forward to having to sideload Facebook, Instagram, Google, Gmail, and every single other megacorps app just because they want to track my every click. I would rather give power to Apple than all the other companies.

I have great news for you: The hyperbolic nonsense you just described will literally never happen.

The first thing that will happen is Facebook putting up a "light" version in the AppStore with half of functionality removed and pestering people to sideload the "full" version, that will, naturally, come with tracking, snooping and all other unethical bs that they love so much.

Re: EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

#263

Post by savanaly »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #67

It is understandable why Apple wants to keep its current grip on iOS indefinitely. What I don't understand is why some people defend it, on this very forum! One commenter simultaneously defended gay marriages - "if you don't like gay marriages, don't get married to gays" - and defended the Apple's monopoly - "I like that there is only one Appstore and developers won't force me to sideload".

It comes down to this: I support companies being free to sell the product they want and users being free to buy what they want. If Apple sells a phone that's locked down, a piece of junk, wonderful, or anything in between that's between them and their customers. It's not the government's role to step in and prevent those voluntary transactions IMO. I would allow exceptions for grievous bodily injury and so on in my outlook, but I don't think that applies here.

Third party app developers don't have a right to use Apple's app store in whatever way they want. They have a right to sell things to customers on whatever terms the customers agree to and with whatever agreements they are able to make with other businesses like Apple.

Re: EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

#264

Post by HWR_14 »

stale2002 wrote: post #238
tinus_hn wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only there were phones that did exactly what you wanted

There will be! After the law goes into effect it will be the iPhone. Feel free to not install internet browsers that you don't like though.

Google search, Youtube and many other properties will only work with Chromium as soon as it doesn't mean saying goodbye to iOS users.

Re: EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

#265

Post by rnk »

ericmay wrote: post #232
hamandcheese wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extensions that are less powerful and must go through App Store review. Which is fine, if you want that keep using Safari! But I'd like to run actual Firefox.

Why not buy an Android device then? Once you remove these things that you want to remove, you wind up losing the very things that attract you to iPhone in the first place!

I disagree. i just want to run firefox or chrome directly and completely without using apple's unnecessary & required piece of safari on ios. Let people run the whole web browsing app, if they want to. I'm skeptical of any significant security advantage to the limits on web browsers - after all apple gets hit by the zero days just like other cell phones.

Re: EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

#266

Post by LeoNatan25 »

RIMR wrote: post #231
crop_rotation wrote: post #226

I have never owned an iPhone and even I find this a very bad idea. A lot of people buy iPhones because they prefer the choices made by Apple. If there were secondary AppStores, you would have a Metastore and a Googlestore very quickly, since Whatsapp and Google Maps have become indispensable for large parts of the world. You don't even have to take them off Apple store, but make newest features custom store only. The…

Nobody is forcing anyone to use third-party app stores. The EU is just forcing Apple not to engage in anti-competitive practices. If you want the security of an all-Apple ecosystem, you will still be free to do so. If I want the freedom to install whatever I want to my iPhone, I will be free to do so. Nobody is trying to take away your right to use your phone as you want, they are trying to grant you the right to use…

One could argue that once Facebook moves all its software to its own iOS store, all users would follow, installing any insecure software Facebook decides to shove down their throats. But people should have the choice.

Re: EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

#267

Post by kibwen »

HWR_14 wrote: post #258
faeriechangling wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>you can only run Safari on iOS Apple mandating WebKit is the only thing holding v8 back from a total monopoly, while WebKit itself has no chance of being a monopoly in the forseeable future, so I doubt there's a good anti-competitive case to be made for forcing Apple to stop doing this. It would only accelerate the monopolisation of the browser market if this happened. It would be good for consumers in the short ter…

Just like Apple mandating WebKit is the only thing holding v8/Chromium from a total monopoly, the App Store monopoly is the only thing holding back "use Meta omni-permission store or get cut off from FB/IG/WhatsApp". And then Meta getting most companies to use their store because they'll take 10% and just the data.

Great, and then we can properly break up Facebook as well as Google. I see no downsides here.

Re: EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

#268

Post by hightrix »

Apocryphon wrote: post #188
theshrike79 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When this goes through, you can be 100% sure there will be a Meta-only iOS store along with a Google iOS store and all their apps will move there. After that if you want to use apps to access any Google or Meta service, you'll need to get it from their store - that doesn't have any pesky limitations on user profiling or stupid guidelines for privacy.

I think the threat of rival app stores is highly overrated: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33978081 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30808926 I don't think they have the product gumption, nor do users have the patience, to deal with multiple app stores. They'll just end up abandoning those apps, at least on iOS. Also regulators will not be amused by other companies forcing users to use their own walled gard…

> I think the threat of rival app stores is highly overrated

Agreed. I also don't think Google or Facebook will make iOS stores. My real worry is that a malicious actor will create a side loadable store called "iGoogle Store" that is then pushed to non-technical people. I could easily see both young and old people falling for this. This "iGoogle Store" would then request Google login credentials and millions of accounts are compromised.

I don't see why wanting a closed ecosystem is a choice people are so against. There is a great open option, I'd prefer the current closed option to remain completely closed.

Re: EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

#269

Post by rnk »

kajumix wrote: post #252
grishka wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about personal choices, it's about enabling fair competition. If you sell a general-purpose computing device and market it as one, you should relinquish any control of it once it's sold.

Competition is the natural state of affairs. Nobody has to enable it. IBM/Microsoft weren't forced by the EU to give up market dominance in PCs. And if the EU tried, it couldn't ever do a better job than Apple did. It's no surprise that EU lags so much behind the US in tech innovation.

Actually the web browser is exactly one of the things that microsoft had to change to reduce their enforced market dominance. They made microsoft stop forcing IE down everyone's throat.

It's eerie how similar the iphone browser situation paralllels that.

Re: EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

#270

Post by Apocryphon »

crop_rotation wrote: post #245
RIMR wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is forcing anyone to use third-party app stores. The EU is just forcing Apple not to engage in anti-competitive practices. If you want the security of an all-Apple ecosystem, you will still be free to do so. If I want the freedom to install whatever I want to my iPhone, I will be free to do so. Nobody is trying to take away your right to use your phone as you want, they are trying to grant you the right to use…

Yes, nobody wanted virues/malware on Windows, and nobody was forced to install them. We all know how it went. If people didn't want malware, they were free to read carefully and not click on untrusted files/links. What if you want the freedom to install whatever you want on your gaming console? What about your Printer? Your watch? Your car infotainment system? The list is endless. Consumer choice is off course being…

You could always install anything beyond the App Store on macOS (and Mac OS), and that issue wasn't there. Sure, you can claim it was a security through obscurity thing (far fewer Mac users), but that truly ignores the vast differences in terms of UX and under the hood security (and simply stability) between Mac and Windows. Yet, Macs are not known for having tons of viruses and malware.

(The "no one wants to hack Macs because there are far fewer users" argument also seems strange to me when, as with iOS devices opposed to Android, there is a degree of higher-paying users with Macs, which might present a lucrative target for scammers and hackers.)

Point is, openness is relative. iOS might permit alternative app stores, but those app stores can still be reined in by security precautions at the OS level, Apple can still provide protection over non-App Store apps much like notarizing, they can have an iOS version of their desktop malware scanner XProtect, heck they can even warn users installing unverified apps like they do with Gatekeeper on macOS.

> What if you want the freedom to install whatever you want on your gaming console? What about your Printer? Your watch? Your car infotainment system? The list is endless.

Don't threaten us with a good time!

> Apps like Whatsapp are such must haves that their mere extra features on a diff store will propel that store to stardom.

Yeah, I think that threat is overblown.

Post reply on HN