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Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

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Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#261
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you just compare a workplace to a frat house party? Unreal...

Its an analogy, not a comparison. Different workplaces have different cultures and different standards of behavior. Startups in particular are known for having unique work environments, and how well you fit into the culture of any business is an important part of determining if you should be hired there. e.g. http://dondodge.typepad.com/the_next_big_thing/2010/09/how-t...

How is an analogy not a comparison? E.g.:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/analogy http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/analogy

Also, startups may have unique cultural requirements, but putting up with a hostile work environment is not one of them. Not under US law, anyhow.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#262
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its an analogy, not a comparison. Different workplaces have different cultures and different standards of behavior. Startups in particular are known for having unique work environments, and how well you fit into the culture of any business is an important part of determining if you should be hired there. e.g. http://dondodge.typepad.com/the_next_big_thing/2010/09/how-t...

How is an analogy not a comparison? E.g.: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/analogy http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/analogy Also, startups may have unique cultural requirements, but putting up with a hostile work environment is not one of them. Not under US law, anyhow.

I meant definition 5, which apparently is not as popular as I thought.

e.g. Peanuts are to elephants as bananas are to monkeys. Peanuts are not being compared to bananas, and elephants are not being compared to monkeys.

The workplace was not being compared to a frat house. What's being compared is the decision a person would make about those environments: if you don't like it, don't join.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#263
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Your deciding what is and isn't important for women to care about is a perfect example of privilege. What privilege exactly? The privilege of sharing my opinion on HN and getting down-voted for it? I thought "privilege" was a concept related to power, what happened to that notion? Women, like men, also care about BS. Non-issues, stupid issues, moral non-issues, religious hard-lines, the latest celeb gossip, some fad…

One thing that bothers me about any and all up-vote/down-vote systems is exactly what has happened to Batista. He expresses an opinion that is contrary to what other people are saying and he gets down-voted into oblivion. This just feeds into the creation of a culture bubble and never lets anyone in the communities views get challenged. As a side note, I would like to clarify that my view on the issue is: A) Not rele…

One one hand, down-voting someone because (you think) they're wrong is counterproductive to a healthy discussion, but batista is doing the equivalent of walking into a technical discussion about, let's say, improving Django performance and saying "look, just use Rails, duh!" - there's nothing insightful about that position (which just seems to mirror normative culture), and the posts have a slight tin-foil-hat tone. There are some statements that are just not worth arguing against and are tangential to the point of distraction. Would you agree that those kinds of comments are worth downvoting (even if you don't agree that batista's comments fall into that category)?

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#264
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Your deciding what is and isn't important for women to care about is a perfect example of privilege. What privilege exactly? The privilege of sharing my opinion on HN and getting down-voted for it? I thought "privilege" was a concept related to power, what happened to that notion? Women, like men, also care about BS. Non-issues, stupid issues, moral non-issues, religious hard-lines, the latest celeb gossip, some fad…

One thing that bothers me about any and all up-vote/down-vote systems is exactly what has happened to Batista. He expresses an opinion that is contrary to what other people are saying and he gets down-voted into oblivion. This just feeds into the creation of a culture bubble and never lets anyone in the communities views get challenged. As a side note, I would like to clarify that my view on the issue is: A) Not rele…

Batista is not being downvoted because they're expressing a differing opinion. They're being downvoted because they're not taking the time to fully consider the issues and engage in reasonable debate.

As an example, from their first post, they suggest that it's not legitimate to worry about this sort of problem because larger problems exist. This form of argument is not only blindly hypocritical (that is, if the arguer believed it, they would not be engaging in the subdebate but rather be working to resolve the larger problem) but intrinsically ridiculous -- it supposes that it's not legitimate to discuss any issue while "worse" problems persist. It's a self-defeating argument on a specialized forum like HN, and utilizing it indicates that someone isn't actually arguing the topic at hand (in a sense, it's a "universal" argument, and thus like nonfalsifiable theories, completely irrelevant).

They then literally compare their own downvoting to the Salem witch trials (the irony of which is beyond belief, and further calls into question their sincerity), and additionally claim that proportion of women in tech is "not a serious issue in its manifestation or it's consequences at all", and when pressed that many people disagree, compare people who care about workplace sexism to hypochondriacs in order to marginalize their beliefs (this is particularly poisonous and a clear indicator that they're not interested in the viewpoints of others). They also fall into a really standard "I'm just expressing my opinion" backtrack, which is particularly ironic given that their initial complaint was that people were expressing their opinion on this topic rather than doing something more worthwhile.

Regardless of their viewpoint, they're not participating in reasonable intellectual discourse. We're not obligated to argue with someone who's plainly not interested in having an actual argument, and the up/down-voting is working as it should in this instance (I'm certainly not saying it works as it should in all instances, but this is pretty clear).

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#265

"It has been fascinating to watch the ongoing reactions. There have been complaints that we have too many bots in the channel now. There have been complaints about it spamming the channel. There were several “Make them shut up!” responses. These are not reactions I have seen the other bots elicit, certainly not with such intensity. One person even complained about the name being too long, though to his credit he real…

> Stuff that doesn't bother you (that another poster here describes as being "tuned-out"), as a man, because your gender plays no part in your job, is experienced differently by your female colleagues This is an insightful observation. Guys often like to think that they're much better at taking sexist jokes directed their way. "I have no problem when a commercial makes fun of a guy's inability to do housework!" they…

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Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#266
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Your deciding what is and isn't important for women to care about is a perfect example of privilege. What privilege exactly? The privilege of sharing my opinion on HN and getting down-voted for it? I thought "privilege" was a concept related to power, what happened to that notion? Women, like men, also care about BS. Non-issues, stupid issues, moral non-issues, religious hard-lines, the latest celeb gossip, some fad…

One thing that bothers me about any and all up-vote/down-vote systems is exactly what has happened to Batista. He expresses an opinion that is contrary to what other people are saying and he gets down-voted into oblivion. This just feeds into the creation of a culture bubble and never lets anyone in the communities views get challenged. As a side note, I would like to clarify that my view on the issue is: A) Not rele…

[deleted]

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems minor to you .

You don't say?! Isn't this true for any statement one makes, that it seems that way to him? Isn't it also obvious that for other people, it might not seem so? What you say is essentially: "other people disagree with that assertion". Well, you can find people that disagree with any assertion. That's not an argument pro or against the assertion.

I'm trying to provide perspective without wading into a quagmire. Basically, you're deciding for someone else what is and is not minor to them, and then holding it against them that they're concerned about something minor.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#268
This is tangential to the discussion, but as an obtuse non-American I'm glad to have the phrase in question explained to me (you wouldn't believe I have actually spent some time in the US). The UK equivalant is "as the actress said to the bishop", which combines a Cromwellian suspicion of the immorality of the theatre with the implication of the hypocrisy of the clergy. Is it any better, though? I'm sure the bot could be adjusted to come back with quotes from actresses.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#269
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I find it extremely funny/awkward that you say police person instead of policeman/woman, flight attendant instead of steward/stewardess, horizontally challenged instead of fat, can't say fuck on TV (but it's ok to carry guns and kill millions of innocent Afghans and support Israel's invasion of Palestine), that you can't drink under 18/21 (I don't know which one) not even if your parents are around (and you call…

I live in the US. I think most of those things happen a lot less than you think. To take what I think is the most extreme example, in the ~35 years that I've been parsing speech successfully, I don't think I've ever heard someone refer to a fat person as "horizontally challenged." Maybe this stuff just happens on TV? One exception: not saying "fuck" on TV. That's accurate and fucking insane.

It's also insane the amount of gore and violence allowed on TV and in movies, but show a little skin and you get fined.

The reason Family Guy has so many fight scenes is to prove how stupid the FCC's regulations on violence are compared to nudity.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#270
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I find it extremely funny/awkward that you say police person instead of policeman/woman, flight attendant instead of steward/stewardess, horizontally challenged instead of fat, can't say fuck on TV (but it's ok to carry guns and kill millions of innocent Afghans and support Israel's invasion of Palestine), that you can't drink under 18/21 (I don't know which one) not even if your parents are around (and you call…

I live in the US. I think most of those things happen a lot less than you think. To take what I think is the most extreme example, in the ~35 years that I've been parsing speech successfully, I don't think I've ever heard someone refer to a fat person as "horizontally challenged." Maybe this stuff just happens on TV? One exception: not saying "fuck" on TV. That's accurate and fucking insane.

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