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Workers who cut countertops are dying of silicosis

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Re: Workers who cut countertops are dying of silicosis

#261
post #108
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems that the synthetic stone is not the cause, but highlighting the problem: poor enforcement of safety standards and inadequate PPE provided to workers. Just because there's more silica doesn't mean that it's suddenly unsafe whereas cutting granite is safe. Even drywall or cutting concrete you're supposed to wear PPE.

> Even drywall or cutting concrete you're supposed to wear PPE Yeah, but it doesn’t kill you within a few years if you don’t, right?

Cutting cement boards with a diamond blade is pretty god-awful for your lungs. On the order of few years.

Effects depend on the particle geometry.

But as a general rule of thumb: if it's biologically inert and tough enough to stick around for awhile... it'll just stay in your lungs. E.g. fiberglass, cement, rock, paint.

I wear a respirator a LOT more these days than I did when I was younger.

Re: Workers who cut countertops are dying of silicosis

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Get legislation passed like “right to work”, conspire with other business leaders to suppress worker wages/benefits, make striking illegal, etc etc etc.

"Right to work" is not going to stop anyone from quitting if some other job provides better working conditions. The only reason you need to strike is if there isn't any other employer offering better terms that you can go work for instead. Otherwise you can just threaten to quit unless they meet your terms and actually do it if they don't. Conspiracies only work if the market is concentrated enough; if there are ten…

The market can de-competitiveize itself through non-compete agreements, intellectual property laws, and other barriers to entry. The competitiveness occurs around the "ruleset", which shifts around according to the regulatory environment.

The government tends to default to supporting strikebreaking(and still generally does in any era, including this one) because industrialists, financiers and politicians share lines of mutual support: legal ownership of intangibles like a corporation acts as an alternative to feudal fiefdoms and warlords, in that it's less destructive and lets complex processes evolve.

Corporations are very effective at putting taxable assets on the books, which allows a more complex state bureaucracy, so politicians end up wanting the support of business for government power and expenditures. Financiers want their thumb on the scale, for the winners they picked to continue winning, rather than to run off and form a competitor. And the industrialists themselves, though they are often at the forefront of the most dramatic reorganizations, tend to get stuck in equilibriums where either they're the evil monopolist, or someone else is. Once you arrive at the equilibrium, the elite players lose their dynamism and are pressured to stay within the existing trends or lose their place.

Thus when the Pinkertons or their modern counterparts come in, the officials shrug and say "business as usual, business as usual". The system convulses when it becomes a riot and property is destroyed because that weakens the whole premise: less capital to deploy, fewer assets to tax, failure to return on investment. And people out of a job, but if they were rioting it may have been a crummy job. It creates a shock that can break the equilibrium and enable a different deployment of labor and capital in a new technological environment. That's essentially why the industrial era has so many short, distinct periods and upheavals within it; the sausage is being made, though it's ugly to witness.

Re: Workers who cut countertops are dying of silicosis

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to strongly push back on both (1) the notion that overall survival is the wrong metric and (2) that I'm misinterpreting something, given that I didn't really offer any interpretation at all. I just cited a paper. > What you want to do is No, what I want to do is assess whether broad screening programs actually make people live longer. Overall survival is the correct metric. Evidence in favor of the claim is…

> No, what I want to do is assess whether broad screening programs actually make people live longer. Overall survival is the correct metric. Evidence in favor of the claim is lacking. Correct according to whom? If you want to choose only one metric quality adjusted life years is likely the best one. While OS may be your goal that's not the primary endpoint of screening programs. Some examples of why OS is limited: br…

> Correct according to whom? If you want to choose only one metric quality adjusted life years is likely the best one

By all means, if you have studies showing that broad screening programs are beneficial in terms of overall (not cancer-case only) QALY then please share them. I'm guessing you don't.

> As you're choosing to limit the discussion to overall survival, do you have any data to support the claim that screening has more than a negligible negative effect?

Do you have any data to support the claim that screening has more than a negligible positive effect on overall survival? (No).

Stop trying to put the burden of proving a negative on me. If you want to advocate for spending ten of billions of dollars annually (not to mention time and stress) on broad screening programs you bear the burden of demonstrating that's useful.

If we can afford to spend the money on screening everyone certainly we can afford to spend less money to run a large randomized trial screening only some people, but advocates of the screening programs won't stand for it because they are convinced of their own righteousness and refuse to admit uncertainty about whether the screening programs are actually doing more good than harm.

Re: Workers who cut countertops are dying of silicosis

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Right to work" is not going to stop anyone from quitting if some other job provides better working conditions. The only reason you need to strike is if there isn't any other employer offering better terms that you can go work for instead. Otherwise you can just threaten to quit unless they meet your terms and actually do it if they don't. Conspiracies only work if the market is concentrated enough; if there are ten…

The market can de-competitiveize itself through non-compete agreements, intellectual property laws, and other barriers to entry. The competitiveness occurs around the "ruleset", which shifts around according to the regulatory environment. The government tends to default to supporting strikebreaking(and still generally does in any era, including this one) because industrialists, financiers and politicians share lines…

> The market can de-competitiveize itself through non-compete agreements, intellectual property laws, and other barriers to entry. The competitiveness occurs around the "ruleset", which shifts around according to the regulatory environment.

What you're getting at is that market competition can be destroyed through regulatory capture. But now you're making the case for regulatory form and anti-trust rather than some kind of labor laws, which was kind of what I was getting at to begin with.

Trying to regulate an artificial monopoly is a fool's errand, not least because if they have the political influence to capture regulators and retain their monopoly then they can also interfere with the passage or enforcement of anything that benefits workers at their expense. So all efforts should be directed to breaking them into tiny, tiny pieces none of which have enough power to capture the government.

Re: Workers who cut countertops are dying of silicosis

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, what I want to do is assess whether broad screening programs actually make people live longer. Overall survival is the correct metric. Evidence in favor of the claim is lacking. Correct according to whom? If you want to choose only one metric quality adjusted life years is likely the best one. While OS may be your goal that's not the primary endpoint of screening programs. Some examples of why OS is limited: br…

> Correct according to whom? If you want to choose only one metric quality adjusted life years is likely the best one By all means, if you have studies showing that broad screening programs are beneficial in terms of overall (not cancer-case only) QALY then please share them. I'm guessing you don't. > As you're choosing to limit the discussion to overall survival, do you have any data to support the claim that screen…

> By all means, if you have studies showing that broad screening programs are beneficial in terms of overall (not cancer-case only) QALY then please share them. I'm guessing you don't.

I gave you one.

> Stop trying to put the burden of proving a negative on me.

You're making the claim there's more than a negligible negative effect not me.

> Do you have any data to support the claim that screening has more than a negligible positive effect on overall survival? (No).

Did I say there is a sizable positive effect on overall survival? I said it's irrelevant.

Re: Workers who cut countertops are dying of silicosis

#266
post #239
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't take HN threads on generic nationalistic flamewar tangents. I'm sure you didn't intend it, but that's what this leads to, in the statistical case. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: we've had to ask you not to do this on HN more than once before. Please avoid it in the future. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34492512 (Jan 2023) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34073107 (Dec 2…

Sorry Dang. I hadn't realized it was coming off that way, but I'll be my best to check myself in the future. I can see how what I said would be construed that way.

Appreciated!

Re: Workers who cut countertops are dying of silicosis

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Correct according to whom? If you want to choose only one metric quality adjusted life years is likely the best one By all means, if you have studies showing that broad screening programs are beneficial in terms of overall (not cancer-case only) QALY then please share them. I'm guessing you don't. > As you're choosing to limit the discussion to overall survival, do you have any data to support the claim that screen…

> By all means, if you have studies showing that broad screening programs are beneficial in terms of overall (not cancer-case only) QALY then please share them. I'm guessing you don't. I gave you one. > Stop trying to put the burden of proving a negative on me. You're making the claim there's more than a negligible negative effect not me. > Do you have any data to support the claim that screening has more than a negl…

> I gave you one.

No you didn't, you gave me a simulation study that discussed what kind of sample size might be necessary to find statistically significant effects in all-cause mortality. There's not a single mention of QALY in there. Please stop misrepresenting things.

> You're making the claim there's more than a negligible negative effect not me.

The cost itself is a nonnegligible negative effect.

> Did I say there is a sizable positive effect on overall survival? I said it's irrelevant.

You're wrong.

It's borderline fraud, in my humble opinion, to go around suggesting that massive interventions should be evaluated based on their effects only on the people who benefit most, ignoring the negative effects on the other 98% of the population. Which is exactly what you did in your first reply to me:

> What you want to do is look at stage at presentation, treatment costs by stage, and screening costs. These were done for nearly every recommended screening program.

> The available evidence behind currently recommended screening programs unequivocally shows improved cancer-specific survival and earlier stage at diagnosis.

This approach to evaluating an intervention is intellectually dishonest and emotionally manipulative. Any evaluation that does not take into account the other 98% of the population--through overall survival or QALY or some other metric--is giving an extremely biased picture of what the intervention is actually doing to the population as a whole.

Re: Workers who cut countertops are dying of silicosis

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By all means, if you have studies showing that broad screening programs are beneficial in terms of overall (not cancer-case only) QALY then please share them. I'm guessing you don't. I gave you one. > Stop trying to put the burden of proving a negative on me. You're making the claim there's more than a negligible negative effect not me. > Do you have any data to support the claim that screening has more than a negl…

> I gave you one. No you didn't, you gave me a simulation study that discussed what kind of sample size might be necessary to find statistically significant effects in all-cause mortality. There's not a single mention of QALY in there. Please stop misrepresenting things. > You're making the claim there's more than a negligible negative effect not me. The cost itself is a nonnegligible negative effect. > Did I say the…

What are the downsides? You're speaking nebulously about negative effects on 98% of the population without mentioning them.

Several screening programs like breast have been rigorously evaluated from costs, benefits and harms. I know very well what the negative effects are, do you? You haven't mentioned anything specific or provided estimates of harms yet you're the one making the assertion.

> You're wrong.

So if we're all wrong, what's the argument and where's the evidence without resorting to no OS benefit ignoring that this is again not the point of screening.

> It's borderline fraud, in my humble opinion

Your humble opinion disagrees with the entire medical community, including the study you initially cited. So we're all fraudulently screening for what purpose? You know that physicians don't collect billings or work fee for service in academic medicine correct?

> Which is exactly what you did in your first reply to me:

Did I say that was the only reason to screen and ignore the harms? I used that as an example of why overall survival is not useful as an isolated statistic.

You're the one who wanted to limit the discussion to one measure, I was pointing out the flaws.

Re: Workers who cut countertops are dying of silicosis

#270

Not long ago, we had our countertop replaced (from quartz to granite). They ended up having to make a cut in it while it was sitting in our kitchen. Our home was in a cloud of dust for several hours, and when the dust finally settled a day later, every surface imaginable was covered in dust. I’m pretty sure none of them wore masks when doing this. I honestly didn’t think to wear a mask either (since they weren’t and…

> Fortunately it was a granite countertop and not quartz. Granites are primarily composed of feldspar and quartz, which are both primarily composed of silica. Silica is the thing that causes silicosis, and when that granite was cut it was clouds of silica dust that covered your home. You were no more safe in that granite dust than you would have been in quartz dust.

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