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Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market

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Re: Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it's the idea that you have a unique artifact formed over millions of years No it isn't. There are plenty of ugly diamonds — they are also formed over millions of years and are never sold to consumers. This is an ad hoc justification. People only cared about the beauty of the diamond until lab made ones came along. They are cut to increase the beauty. That already makes it processed. Nobody buys uncut diamonds. And…

> This is an ad hoc justification. It is ad hoc, yes, but is not the only justification. Diamonds are also rare (unlike olivine) and clear diamonds are pretty (unlike ones with lots of inclusions). We can like things for multiple reasons.

>Diamonds are also rare

Only if you define them such that you exclude lab-made diamonds. But I agree that we can like things for multiple reasons and that rarity is a part of the demand for diamonds.

In any case, I believe people will eventually forget about "unnatural" diamonds. People will be more creative with thier works if a failure does not cost so much, and the average size will be larger. Consider that modern farmed perls were once considered unnatural. But they are not only cheaper but more uniform than wild ones and now nobody buys those.

Re: Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the GEM Society is a business that wants to 1) continue grading diamonds and 2) begin cataloging lab diamonds. Both of which are revenue sources.

The claim I replied to was (emphasis added) > I think it's mandatory that every lab-grown diamond above a certain carat are laser-engraved That’s not “diamonds that are lab-grown by GEM Society members”. Why would it be reasonable to require anybody who’s not the GEM Society to engrave their products, so that the GEM Society can protect its source of revenues?

I think you also mentioned “reasonable” and I’m pointing to the reason. You have to remember who makes the rules and also that this is an old business that’s rich with protected interests.

But there’s also a lot of concern about stolen jewelry and even diamond swapping for seemingly legitimate businesses. So, not too hard to make it also sound like it’s for the consumers best interest.

Re: Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market

#263
post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pointing out that diamonds specifically are not actually special, unique or rare gems and that marriage oaths they are intended to represent are still likely to be broken, does not make you as smart as you seem to think you are. All of this is already well-known and well-accepted by the vast majority of the population. Swearing on a Bible or just verbally affirming that you promise to tell the truth in court, again,…

Subordinating women and minorities/outsiders “are the customs that the general population has chosen to acknowledge” for most of civilized history “that ma[de] them valuable as signifiers that one is, to some degree, participating as a normal member of society”. I would encourage you to never use that as an argument for anything, ever. It is devoid of weight or reason. You can do better, I promise.

The problem you're having is that you're unable to view purchasing a diamond in non-economic terms. It isn't "absurd" or "non-advanced," nor are people "duped" into making "supremely poor financial decisions." People aren't as dumb as you think, they know that a rock doesn't really represent anything, but they enjoy giving and receiving diamonds, and pretending that they do symbolize a commitment, and sharing that belief with friends and family.

You think my previous comment is "devoid of reason" because it's about ritual and symbolic gestures, not about economics, concepts you either cannot comprehend or choose not to. Which is fine -- most atheists believe they are wiser than believers, for example -- but no amount of rationality or logic is going to change people's minds.

Re: Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market

#264

De Beers basically controls the whole diamond market. They make it almost impossible to resell them and strictly control the supply. They were also responsible (via advertising agency N. W. Ayer) for the idea that diamonds should be used in engagement rings in 1938-1941. This write-up from The Atlantic from 1982 explains the situation well. [1] Not sad to see the cartel taking an L. [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/ma…

> This write-up from The Atlantic from 1982 explains the situation well. It explains the situation 40+ years ago, but is completely irrelevant today.

It is not, since it explains why you think you want a diamond ring for a wedding instead of, say, investing the 3 months worth of salary...

Re: Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market

#265
post #218
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Shiny carbon is shiny carbon to me You're only considering intrinsic value. That's helpful for raw commodities. For nearly everything else, value is tied to perception, history, etc. If I have two identical baseballs, they're both "just" baseballs. But one of them could have much more value due to its history: maybe it was a homerun ball by a famous player, or a ball that I or a family member hit/caught. Same funct…

> In this case, your wife values the story of a natural diamond that was formed through long, natural processes and required the effort of finding, excavating, cutting and so on. I see this come up a lot, but I doubt very much that this story forms a large part of many people's thinking. People want the status symbol and they want what they perceive as the ‘real’ thing, not what they rightly or wrongly perceive as an…

Well put.

For simplicity, I was considering "story" as part of the "status" side too (i.e.- there's a story here that I'm better than you for these reasons).

I know it's Hacker News, but come on folks, it's not that hard to understand that marketing, branding, storytelling and whatnot are real, meaningful forces in human dynamics.

Re: Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market

#266
post #205
post #104

I just got engaged. When we looked at rings, the jeweler asked my fiancé if she wanted natural or synthetic, and she responded “I don’t want a blood diamond!!” Of course, mined diamonds aren’t blood diamonds, but her impression was still they were a little ickier. The jeweler told me that one reason to get a natural diamond was that the prices of lab grown diamonds had been falling, whereas natural hasn’t as much, so…

> so the ring would hold more value A nice little white lie by omission anyway, as the resale value of a diamond drops up to 50% when it leaves the store! If you were planning for an investment, you'd be better off looking elsewhere.

That’s how I got a lavish engagement ring for my wife, I simply bought it used from a guy who’d bought it a year ago for a relationship that fell apart.

Met him at a jewelry store and had it verified and appraised, he had the receipt for the 12k or so he paid, it appraised for 16k (not sure why they appraise for more than the retail price), and I paid him 5k (CAD).

This was years ago, and I think it was a 1.4ct VVS2.

That same budget in store had me looking at sub 1 carat SI2 crap that was cloudy as all hell.

Diamonds have 0 resale value, not sure why people think otherwise when it’s so easy to see simply browsing used ads.

Re: Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market

#267
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so the ring would hold more value A nice little white lie by omission anyway, as the resale value of a diamond drops up to 50% when it leaves the store! If you were planning for an investment, you'd be better off looking elsewhere.

That’s how I got a lavish engagement ring for my wife, I simply bought it used from a guy who’d bought it a year ago for a relationship that fell apart. Met him at a jewelry store and had it verified and appraised, he had the receipt for the 12k or so he paid, it appraised for 16k (not sure why they appraise for more than the retail price), and I paid him 5k (CAD). This was years ago, and I think it was a 1.4ct VVS2.…

>it appraised for 16k

wasnt that a fraud by a jewelry store, claiming its worth 16K while not willing to pay that much for it?

Re: Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market

#268
post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s how I got a lavish engagement ring for my wife, I simply bought it used from a guy who’d bought it a year ago for a relationship that fell apart. Met him at a jewelry store and had it verified and appraised, he had the receipt for the 12k or so he paid, it appraised for 16k (not sure why they appraise for more than the retail price), and I paid him 5k (CAD). This was years ago, and I think it was a 1.4ct VVS2.…

>it appraised for 16k wasnt that a fraud by a jewelry store, claiming its worth 16K while not willing to pay that much for it?

I agree, and don’t really get it either. Some stores it’s even advertised that their goods are appraised at more than their price.

Maybe it’s a marketing thing, but to me it just feels like fraud against whoever has to insure it (if I list it on my home insurance for example).

Re: Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market

#269
post #224
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least people can tell their story I suppose, while a diamond cannot really once mounted on a ring (I guess you can get some certificate that tells a story, but it is not something obvious when looking at the ring). Note: my engagement ring cost $12.00 on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/TIGRADE-Titanium-Polished-Wedding-Com...

For traceability, cut diamonds are laser enscribed with serial number or makers mark visible by inspection with jewelers magnifying loupe.

but it does not seem visible to the naked eye when looking at jewelry... I guess with more lab made diamonds we will come to appreciate the geological beauty of it, and have bigger diamonds for the same price.

Re: Diamond prices are in free fall in one key corner of the market

#270
post #104

I just got engaged. When we looked at rings, the jeweler asked my fiancé if she wanted natural or synthetic, and she responded “I don’t want a blood diamond!!” Of course, mined diamonds aren’t blood diamonds, but her impression was still they were a little ickier. The jeweler told me that one reason to get a natural diamond was that the prices of lab grown diamonds had been falling, whereas natural hasn’t as much, so…

Diamonds are a TERRIBLE investment and usually lose around 50% (natural) to 90% (synthetic) on sale. But think like this: if a ring costs 10K natural and 2K synthetic, a 50% loss on natural would correspond to losing 5K. A 90% loss on synthetic would correspond to losing 1.8K. You're still on top big time.

I gave my wife a large synthetic diamond ring for our 15th anniversary and she absolutely loved it.

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