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For many home-schoolers, parents are no longer doing the teaching

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Re: For many home-schoolers, parents are no longer doing the teaching

#261
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the story is quite that simple, for one: at least in my schooling experience, while it is true that property taxes help fund schools, most of the poor, bad-performing schools were allocated more $/student than the other schools once you account for federal funding. There's also pretty inconclusive evidence that school funding actually is tied to performance all that strongly at all. Interventions tied t…

> most of the poor, bad-performing schools were allocated more $/student than the other schools once you account for federal funding. Show me a poor school district with a public school that looks like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xm4dy25VmCw >Interventions tied to giving schools more funding The funding needs to be unconditional. What good teacher is gonna move across a state line and go work for a poor sch…

> Show me a poor school district with a public school that looks like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xm4dy25VmCw

Carmel HS in Indiana is funded at $9.6k/pupil [0]. My urban school district (DC Public Schools) spent ~$22k/pupil [1].

> It's also absurd on its face to think money has no effect on the quality of instruction, the market works pretty well for everything else, but teachers don't respond to incentives

Schooling is not anywhere close to a market and public schools are not private enterprises. As I've shown above, my poor performing school district was much, much better funded than the Tiktok you linked - much of the problem is on how that many is spent and what is happening within the schools - inequality in funding is just not sufficient to explain gaps in performance. [2]

The paper underlying your second link (https://www.nber.org/papers/w22011) seems strong and potentially causal, I will read it with interest.

> However, we don't do nearly enough to correct for the affects of poverty. Someone growing up in poverty needs a lot more education help than someone growing up in a middle class or upper class family (on average). Also, it's way, way more stressful to teach kids who are growing up in poverty than otherwise, but the salaries do not account for this. So the teachers who work at the poor schools are often working at their last choice school, even if the school nominally has the same level of funding. They're the teachers who couldn't get hired elsewhere, or were hired simply because the last teacher quit out of frustration (I don't want to begrudge teachers at poor schools, there's a lot who are very good at their jobs and who love their students, but this isn't enough to overcome systemic differences).

This part I largely do agree with, I think salaries do try to account for this to some degree (public teachers where I lived made 6 figures often if they taught in schools like these) but not to a significant enough degree (we should be paying close to software engineer salaries IMO).

[0]: https://inview.doe.in.gov/schools/1030602505/finance [1]: https://osse.dc.gov/dcschoolreportcard/per-pupil-expenditure... [2]: http://hanushek.stanford.edu/publications/spending-schools

Re: For many home-schoolers, parents are no longer doing the teaching

#262

Home schooling is a real burden on many parents who aren't professional teachers of course and are pulled in many directions. One of the most exciting emerging trends in home schooling is to pool the resources of multiple home schooling parents. It's simply not practical for parents to commit all the hours needed for full time home schooling 9 till 3:30PM every day. So home schooling parents can team up and share the…

One of the very first things i learned when i began homeschooling was that 9 to 3:30 schooling simply exists for parents work schedules. We can typically knock out our school day in 2 to 3 hours altogether. Granted, my kids are still elementary age

This is due to daylight hours, particularly in northern areas when most work can actually be done

Re: For many home-schoolers, parents are no longer doing the teaching

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that in regular school, if you want your kids to learn math, depending of the state you're in, you may be just out of luck.

You can hire a private tutor, or teach them maths yourself. Only some kids truly have an aptitude for mathematics anyway.

Only some kids truly have an aptitude for mathematics anyway.

That's an absurdly strong and inaccurate statement that feeds into psychological walls that then get erected in the minds of the young and perpetuate ad infinitum. The psychological research here is very clear: stressing work, over some sort of ethereal innate 'talent', in ANY area makes a massive difference in skill attainment.

I don't have time this moment to get into this in any depth, and, it depends, of course, what specifically you mean by "truly have an aptitude", but, too many people have a view of math, in particular, as some kind of magical realm only "truly accessible" to a few. There's a lot that goes into forming the basis for skill in any domain - quite a lot of that likely reflects all sorts of extremely early life parameters and events prior, even, to acquisition of language. The "playing field" is never "level" in any pursuit. But, based on my own experiences and knowledge, there's a mysticism or whatever surrounding some subjects that's just bizarre, IMO.

I would personally, in light of what I've seen to date, draw a very direct analogy with the formation of an NBA player (as an example). Someone can start playing very young, become incredibly adept, and easily never get to the height, strength, etc. (typically) required to make it to NBA level. Nevertheless, these people go on to be trainers, coaches, announcers, etc. This is even more relevant in fields that aren't in the "tournament career" realm.

Often, what holds people back the most, is substantially unfounded statements like yours.

Here's a jumping off point for further info (not enough time to provide more complete refs, currently, apologies): https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-procrastination-...

Re: For many home-schoolers, parents are no longer doing the teaching

#264

Everyone shows up to be taught by a common teacher, with government and non profit funding? That's just school.

Except they have much more flexibility, up to individualization, in terms of curriculum content and pacing, teachers from potentially more varied backgrounds/main jobs besides teaching, and the ability to eject unruly and problematic kids that impact other kids’ abilities to focus and learn?

So... They have reinvented private school?

Re: For many home-schoolers, parents are no longer doing the teaching

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This means the kids gather together in one location because many kids can learn from the person doing the teaching. >Often as well it makes sense for the parents all to contribute a little money so that instead of the parents having to teach things that they are not expert in, the can pay as a group for someone with subject expertise to assist. >It can be problematic though gathering so many kids into one house for…

Something I heard a few years back put my life experience as a kid in perspective. At least for me, in the most important way possible, it doesn't sound like regular school at all. The main deep life impacting characteristic of standard public schools is coerced unwelcome company. You're forced by law to be around the same bullies for 5, 10, even 12 years. The natural order with organic friendships (and indeed probab…

Exactly, while the appearance of a sufficiently modern homeschool can start to “rhyme” with public school for practical material reasons, in reality the underlying incentives are completely different.

For me, it was charter schools that saved the day. The charter school teachers couldn’t just sit on their ass like public school teachers when some little shit decided to try to ruin my day.

Re: For many home-schoolers, parents are no longer doing the teaching

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a strawman. The steelman version is something like the following chain of reasoning: (a) gender identity is something that everyone has that is distinct from sex, (b) with enough introspection, everyone can discover their true gender identity, (c) if you don't have a strongly felt gender identity, you need to introspect, (d) if introspection does not yield certainty then this suggests genderfluidity, or even w…

That's not the steel man, that's a straw man where you just flipped the politics of the scenario. Letting kids feel safe to introspect and question their gender expression is a good thing. The implication that kids will be _systematically_ forced to delay puberty or undergo a transition they don't want is absurd and not a valid "chain of reasoning". Yes, I'm sure it has happened and could continue in rare instances b…

I guess it comes down to how widespread you think the coercion that you mention is. I tend to believe the current rate of non-cis identification is at least an order of magnitude over the "natural" background rate, specifically because of a system of incentives and disincentives which have been set up. Being non-cis grants attention, care, affirmation, and deference from administrators. It is one of the few categories that administrators seem actually willing to go to the mat to protect from vicious bullying. Being cis means being boring, being tacitly oppressive, and not receiving as much attention, affirmation, or defense from administrators and teachers.

I view this all as a negative insofar as it nudges cis kids to identify as non-cis and start edging closer to risks to their mental and physical health as a result.

Maybe in 15 years this will look silly and we'll all know that 10% non-cis is totally normal and all these people will be able to live authentic lives.

But if in 15 years we reach the opposite discovery, my view is that we will have done a lot of damage to individuals and to systems along the way.

Re: For many home-schoolers, parents are no longer doing the teaching

#267

A couple things to pull out… (1) sometimes alternative education is worse. There’s no question that, in some cases, alternative school is worse for a child’s development than standard public school. I’ve personally seen children who were falling behind because their parents were not equipped to teach them in high school. (2) it can sometimes be better. Alternative school is higher variance than public school - the ch…

You make some good points but "The parent is the person most able to accurately assess their child’s needs" feels like a really strong claim to make without any support. Evaluating a child's needs can really require the opinion of an expert and potentially require testing to evaluate things like learning disabilities or identify what the child is good at. I think it's reasonable to say that the final decision on a ch…

Thanks for adding this context. My wording was ambiguous, and I think there’s broad agreement…responsibility rests with the parents but there are real needs which are outside of their skill to meet.

Certainly, trained specialists should play an important role at various points for all children.

Re: For many home-schoolers, parents are no longer doing the teaching

#268
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same could be said about regular public schools too, no? I know a number of people that went to a local religious school and they came out with excellent understanding of the bible and quickly married off and started having children rather than pursuing advanced education.

Would it be better if they had went to get an advanced education in the humanities and had excellent knowledge of Walden, anthropological studies of papua new guinea, and intersectional feminism? Most people are not studying mathematics, science or engineering in university. A good knowledge of the bible, outside of social signaling, is just as useful to most people's careers and lives as most of the things most peop…

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Re: For many home-schoolers, parents are no longer doing the teaching

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “I don’t want the government perspective imposed on my children” is so funny to me as a homeschooling argument. Go to schoolboard meetings. Talk to your kids and their teachers. Understand what your kids are learning. If you feel a perspective is missing, fill in the gaps. Your kids will be better off for seeing different perspectives, understanding basic argumentation, and coming to their own conclusions. Oh thi…

The point is that there’s no reasonable - folks doing this have deeply expressed beliefs and if you disagree you’re evil. They only sound reasonable when speaking in general terms. I was a school board president of a catholic school that for the most part aligns with state and professional standards and added faith and cultural material not appropriate in a secular school. The kids get a solid education - We got “inv…

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Re: For many home-schoolers, parents are no longer doing the teaching

#270
post #69

A couple things to pull out… (1) sometimes alternative education is worse. There’s no question that, in some cases, alternative school is worse for a child’s development than standard public school. I’ve personally seen children who were falling behind because their parents were not equipped to teach them in high school. (2) it can sometimes be better. Alternative school is higher variance than public school - the ch…

First, we need major educational reform in this country. That said, the problem is that school must (in order to scale) by definition teach at the middle kid of any and all classrooms. This means some are always lagging behind and some are always somewhat bored. At home, a dedicated parent can teach any child more effectively because they are getting individual attention and level setting. However, I'd argue the poin…

I agree that school is more than just fact-stuffing.

Having been homeschooled myself for 8 years, one common misconception is that homeschoolers are nearly always alone. Homeschoolers spend significantly more time with others than the average person realizes.

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