Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists • Hacker News Board

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#261

Post by thebooktocome » Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 5:15 PM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #79

harles wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s definitely a Marxist undertone to the whole thing. What I really don’t get is the conclusion which suggests tearing it all down. Why not build more “Ivy+” and attempt to lift others up rather than flip the table? Yeah, it’s a tall order, but much more practical (not to mention positive) than getting rid of top schools.

> There’s definitely a Marxist undertone to the whole thing Because it argues for meritocratic rewards in society? Because it pointed out that capital is a gatekeeper? What makes it seem "Marxist" to you? > Why not build more “Ivy+” and attempt to lift others up rather than flip the table? I think the argument against subsidizing anti-meritocratic institutions such as Harvard is exactly this. The money is better spen…

It’s the same folk-interpretation of Marxism that always goes around. Now that Marxism is dead and can’t defend itself, it’s whatever anyone wants it to be.

States that were far closer to Marxism, like the PRC during the Cultural Revolution, decimated their universities and dispersed their faculties over the countryside, or to labor camps.

This article is not on the same planet as that madness.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#262

Post by prewett » Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 5:16 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #228

gonehome wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This substack quotes some of the relevant bits: https://colemanhughes.substack.com/p/10-notes-on-the-end-of-... Copying here actual conversation (revealed in the lawsuit) between admissions officers at UNC: “I just opened a brown girl who’s an 810 [SAT].” “If its brown and above a 1300 [SAT] put them in for [the] merit/Excel [scholarship].” “Still yes, give these brown babies a shot at these merit $$.” “I am reading…

Holy shit I hadn’t read the cert petition and hasn’t seen the quotes. I never believed the assertion that “all white people are racist” because I honestly thought the white people around me didn’t “see race.” This has been extremely eye-opening.

"All white people are racist" is a racist statement itself. And the Harvard admissions department is not representative of "white people".

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#263

Post by jgeada » Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 5:17 PM UTC

ta8645 wrote: post #96

commandlinefan wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "lets all be poor" As the parent of two exceptionally-achieving children who were rejected from the "elite" colleges - I've become a lot more sympathetic to the mindset behind this line of thinking. My kids literally couldn't have done more or tried harder - since kindergarten - than they did. They both graduated valedictorian with perfect GPAs, scored in the top 99% of the SAT, did sports, did clubs, volunteered,…

Why would Ivy schools pass your children over?

That's simple: Ivy schools are mostly for $$$ to schmooze with other $$$, with a thin veneer of actually talented kids that had to pass insurmountable odds to get in. The talented kids are there to make the $$$ think they're also talented and had to pass the same rigorous criteria. Smoke and mirrors all of it.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#264

Post by whelp_24 » Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 5:19 PM UTC

8note wrote: post #192

Kon-Peki wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And, in addition, because at least presently, anyone who didn't do Ivy+ is essentially never going to be a SCOTUS judge. For your example, you need to do a post-graduate degree (law) from the Ivy+. This article is talking about the gating functions of the undergraduate admissions departments. The graduate school admissions officers are far more likely to consider strong candidates from "normal" universities than th…

> People shit on it constantly and call it the backdoor, not-so-honest way to get associated with Harvard. This sounds like it's not actually going to Harvard, and you'd only get the slimy Harvard benefits by pretending you did a different program at harvard

Is the work at Harvard Extension not as hard? Or is the complaint about prestige (class)?

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#265

Post by whelp_24 » Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 5:22 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #199

sugarpile wrote: post #4

It has fallen out of favor but I am a massive proponent for graduated drivers licenses. Free toll roads would be silly but higher/removed speed limits seem 100% ok to me as long as it's coupled with an actual assessment of driving ability, semi-frequent required reassessment, and stiffer penalties for things such as DUI when driving in the graduated speed limit range.

Interesting idea, not sure how enforcement would work. That being said, this pretty much already happens in practice. Many people go their whole lives driving (safely) over the speed limit without ever getting a ticket, because they aren't being reckless about it. Generally police officers will ignore you if you're just going with the flow or slightly faster. It's when you start going a lot faster or weaving or being…

That's true as long as the officers don't have other reasons to pull you over (like race) and the city is being overly strict, and like a bunch of other conditions.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#266

Post by bboylen » Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 5:24 PM UTC

jgeada wrote: post #263

ta8645 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would Ivy schools pass your children over?

That's simple: Ivy schools are mostly for $$$ to schmooze with other $$$, with a thin veneer of actually talented kids that had to pass insurmountable odds to get in. The talented kids are there to make the $$$ think they're also talented and had to pass the same rigorous criteria. Smoke and mirrors all of it.

People parrot this point a lot but it doesn't make any sense. The average SAT/ACT at the Ivy's are near perfect, the number of mediocre rich kids paying their way in is a small fraction of the student body.

And yes test scores aren't the best metric for "talent" but it is one of the better signals you get in a college application.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#267

Post by deepnotderp » Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 5:26 PM UTC

glimshe wrote: post #39

This is a typical "let's be all equally poor/bad" argument. Harvard is simply a private institution with excellent reputation and not a single person is required to go there or hire someone from there. Why do Harvard people "drive 20% above the speed limit"? Because selecting good people in a sea of resumes is HARD. Degrees aren't amazing proxies for productivity, but they are decent proxies. I've seen dozens of theo…

> Having managed over 100+ people, I can say that on average the people from better institutions are better employees

You missed the central point of the article about causality.

Of course this will be the case on average, because Harvard gets smarter people on average! Harvard serves no additional value here other than to be a gatekeeper.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#268

Post by ghaff » Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 5:31 PM UTC

laidoffamazon wrote: post #252

whywhywouldyou wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like you need a serious adjustment on your world view if you currently believe you don't have anything to hope for simply because you and your 1500 SAT score didn't get into an elite school.

This isn't what the rest of these comments would indicate (which say that people that get into top schools are fundamentally more qualified and intelligent than people that do not)

Your comment is the only one in this thread that uses the word "fundamentally." The other comments I've read suggested that school can be an indicator of talent/diligence/etc. especially in the absence of a lot of other signal. It's also true that Big Law and Big Management Consulting are pretty educational pedigree focused especially for new grads but that's not everyone.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#269

Post by lapcat » Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 5:33 PM UTC

colingoodman wrote: post #198

lapcat wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the outliers at state schools are people like you with extenuating circumstances. Being middle class is an extenuating circumstance? ;-)

This word choice surprised me as well. The average Big 10 tuition for nonresidents is approaching $40,000. It is better for in-state tuition, but locking students into wherever they happened to grow up also seems unfair.

In my case, I attended a Big 10 school specifically because I was a resident, so the tuition was in-state.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#270

Post by laidoffamazon » Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 5:34 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #268

laidoffamazon wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't what the rest of these comments would indicate (which say that people that get into top schools are fundamentally more qualified and intelligent than people that do not)

Your comment is the only one in this thread that uses the word "fundamentally." The other comments I've read suggested that school can be an indicator of talent/diligence/etc. especially in the absence of a lot of other signal. It's also true that Big Law and Big Management Consulting are pretty educational pedigree focused especially for new grads but that's not everyone.

OK, but it's a pretty big indicator, and apparently justified in being so because the people at top schools are just that much better than people like me.