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Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

theatlantic.com

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Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#261

Post by GeoAtreides »

downvotetruth wrote: post #253
GeoAtreides wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to strongly support people getting fat. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in the US has made me think differently. Most people who get fat eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll say the nu…

I used to strongly support people getting guns. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in the US has made me think differently. Most people who get guns eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll say the…

There is a difference between things that only affect me (or my body) and things that affect other people. Guns heavily skew towards the latter.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#262

Post by varjag »

mike00632 wrote: post #222
ecshafer wrote: post #149

Supporting legalization / decriminalization of hard drugs is a luxury belief. If you’re in a nice rich circle it’s easy to believe it doesn’t harm anyone except yourself. If you are around people that become drug addicts, it becomes apparent that it drastically harms everyone around them, themselves probably not the most. You can only see so many addict parents throw away the money for kids food, or pawn of their kid…

Doesn't the same apply to alcohol?

Alcohol use exerts enormous tax on society which chose to tolerate it for historical adoption reasons. Adding hard drugs is going to exacerbate the situation, and a number of those are worse than alcohol by any metric imaginable.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#263

Post by FormerBandmate »

etc-hosts wrote: post #219
brightlancer wrote: post #186

Rubbish. Folks made the exact same arguments about alcohol and marijuana. Specifically with alcohol, anyone can walk into a treatment center without fear that they'll be arrested for the mere _use_ of a substance. (Marijuana has very low risk and rates of addiction, physical or psychological.) If "hard" drugs are legalized, then they will likely be treated the same as alcohol and pot and tobacco: highly regulated, so…

> taxing the legal pot industry so highly that it was miles cheaper to buy stuff illegally no the corner the legal pot industry's problem is it's impossible for it to turn a profit. they can't deduct operating expenses from their tax liability like other businesses can, because of federal law. items like rent, payroll. they also can't use the same systems of credit management and bank accounts, because of federal law…

The legal pot industry’s problem is that it’s a legal no-man’s-land because pot is actually illegal at a federal level but states just ignore it and the government ignores them ignoring it. It should be legalized at a federal level because that’s already true de facto

Incidentally, the second that happens Altria/BAT/whoever will swoop in and make it a consumer product. This will probably have a serious impact on mom and pop guys, but also cartels

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#264

Post by brightlancer »

darth_avocado wrote: post #205
brightlancer wrote: post #186

Rubbish. Folks made the exact same arguments about alcohol and marijuana. Specifically with alcohol, anyone can walk into a treatment center without fear that they'll be arrested for the mere _use_ of a substance. (Marijuana has very low risk and rates of addiction, physical or psychological.) If "hard" drugs are legalized, then they will likely be treated the same as alcohol and pot and tobacco: highly regulated, so…

I generally agree with the sentiment that drugs should be treated like we treat other addictions like alcohol. Drugs should be decriminalized, anti social criminal behavior should stay criminalized. If I’m drunk and pee in public or assault someone, I’ll go to jail. That is what should happen if I do it under the influence of drugs. The one difference though between alcohol and some of the drugs is potency and how qu…

> The one difference though between alcohol and some of the drugs is potency and how quickly one can be addicted to it.

This is a good point.

If I go to the liquor store, I can buy bottles that are 90% alcohol or bottles as low as 3% alcohol.

If we legalize "hard" drugs like opiates, meth, etc. then we'll get a similar differentiation along with the benefit that the drugs will be checked by Trusted Sources (both government and industry) to effectively eliminate certain adulterants.

And for the folks who become addicts (physically or psychologically), there's no legal risk in telling their doctor or therapist or anyone, and they can better enter treatment.

There are folks who drink 750ml (~24oz) of 40% liquor every day. It's rare but they have an addiction. They can also get treatment, while the rest of us enjoy 5% beers and 13% wines more moderately.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#266

Post by rovolo »

darth_avocado wrote: post #230
anon84873628 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly the prohibition on drugs is not preventing those people from accessing them. Obviously rehabilitation would be ideal. But all else being equal, it would be better if the drugs were cheaper and safer.

> would be better if the drugs were cheaper and safer. Drugs are never going to be safer. If FDA approved painkillers can get you addicted, I am not sure how much safer can Fentanyl get. And making them cheaper is only going to create more problems. Prohibition doesn’t prevent people from accessing drugs. But that doesn’t mean we make it easily accessible. Theft is illegal, but it doesn’t stop people from stealing. T…

>I am not sure how much safer can Fentanyl get

Proper labeling/packaging would make it easier to know what dose you're taking. I believe many overdose deaths were blamed on fentanyl added to heroin, where the user was expecting just heroin.

(I don't know how true my memory is of those initial news articles about fentanyl overdoses in the early 10s)

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#268

Post by throw__away7391 »

tlogan wrote: post #121

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll s…

I have suffered tremendously from the drug use of family and friends. Way too much attention and undeserved sympathy is given to drug users while basically nothing at all to the people around them whose lives they derail for no fault of their own.

As far as what to do, half of this is cultural. People in the US need to grow up, we can’t have a nation of people who require perpetual care of their community, there just aren’t enough “adults” to go around anymore. The US is super rich compared even to other “first world”/G20 countries, even so-called poor people in the US have US dollars to get drugs smuggled to them, creating endless human misery outside the country as well as in.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#269

Post by coffeebeqn »

anon84873628 wrote: post #197
runako wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults Is this true? The US consumes a lot of hard drugs, but my perception is that most users not have their lives fall apart as a result. Curious if there are estimates on the % of e.g. cocaine users who are recreational vs those who eventually end up on the street as a result of their use.

I interpret that to mean, "people who use drugs habitually" not just those who dabbled in particular contexts.

That’s completely wrong too. Most people are habitual users of some drugs. I guess they mean people with serious underlying mental health issues who are self medicating with hard drugs and unable to keep a job

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#270

Post by 1letterunixname »

Decriminalization isn't a panacea (no pun intended.) If there's no integrated treatment, social services, and medical system to support this, then it's doomed to fail.

OTOH, militarized and racist Nixonian prohibition also doesn't serve a public good. One easy change: the US schedule of substances should go away because it levies unfair and unequal punishment on users. Psychoactive substances don't need the regulations, controls, or expense of monitoring highly enriched uranium: it's spending money and effort on the wrong parts of the public health situation. There is already a template for dealing with other substances, i.e., alcohol and tobacco. Focusing on healthcare and mental healthcare for all, with substance treatment being part of it, would lead to better outcomes and probably reduce the costs of policing.

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