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A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now

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Re: A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now

#261

Post by indymike »

pfdietz wrote: post #154
dragontamer wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Refrigerators might be a bad example because we got rid of highly effective refrigerants on purpose to patch a hole in the ozone layer. Or perhaps more accurately, to stop poking a giant hole in the ozone layer.

Today's refrigerators are much more efficient.

Old lock handle fridges are surprisingly efficient. I have a 1949 Hotpoint and a 2022 LG. They both draw about the same amount of power when running, the difference is the Hotpoint runs less because it has four inches of insulation and a lock handle that seals much better than the drawer on the LG freezer. The only complaint with the Hotpoint is that it stays around 32.5°F which is too cold for veggies, but fantastic for beer.

Re: A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now

#262

Post by mrob »

masklinn wrote: post #127
jrochkind1 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, in general, things we buy today are a lot more "affordable" while being lower quality. Googling says the average cost of a refrigerator in 1950 was $250 to $400 (for 10 cubic feet -- a fridge today is 20 to 30 ft^3), which would be $3K to $5K in 2023 dollars. If you pay $3K to $5K for a fridge today (for a fridge 2-3x as big as the 1950 fridge), do you get a better longer-lasting one? I'm not sure.

> If you pay $3K to $5K for a fridge today (for a fridge 2-3x as big as the 1950 fridge), do you get a better longer-lasting one? I'm not sure. One of the difficulties is it's become very hard to know if an item is more expensive because: - it's better quality - it's full of bullshit - it's marketing However 3-5k for a fridge is well into "professional kitchen commercial refrigerator / refrigerated cabinet" range. At…

Professional appliances aren't strictly better, because they're rarely designed to be quiet. Your example:

>Sound pressure level: approximately 65 dB [presumably dBA]

That's much louder than domestic fridges. I would find it unacceptably annoying.

Re: A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now

#263

Post by Broken_Hippo »

quartz wrote: post #25

Wait is this actually better? It's well presented in the ad but: - that removable veggie holder in the door looks crazy heavy and super awkward to put back in place (lining up at a sharp angle while gripping likely slick sides) - you have to open the refrigerator door to get at the freezer - the door compartments are narrow and probably can't handle odd sized containers - the shelves have holes in them so anything th…

- you have to open the refrigerator door to get at the freezer

Not to mention that this freezer is likely: 1. Not self-defrosting, and likely to build up ice since you open the door each time you open the fridge. 2. Definitely less convenient. I have a fairly cheap, small refrigerator - one that fits in my attic apartment - and the freezer has pull-out drawers. Since it sits under the fridge, this is usually nice.

Re: A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now

#264

Post by rsynnott »

amluto wrote: post #157
Levitz wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also a consequence of constant R&D improvements. We can make appliances that last for 20 years or more, sure, but then when 20 years pass you have an appliance that is 20 years old and doesn't have any of that new stuff that came out in the last 20 years.

> new stuff that came out in the last 20 years. There isn’t really that much of this. Let’s consider an oven: Good temperature control: accurate, precise and reliable temperature sensors (e.g. thermocouples) have been around for a long time, as have switching devices that are plenty high speed to make an excellent oven. PID control would be easy with 1980 technology or current technology. Ovens with good temperature…

Yeah, ovens last more or less forever, and haven't had significant efficiency gains in a long time. They're probably the thing you're least likely to want to replace. There's often far more of an incentive with, say, fridges; if you have a 20 year old one, the replacement will likely pay for itself in a few years in power savings.

> The obvious safety mechanism to turn off the gas if the burner isn’t lit? Nonexistent.

... Wait, surely these are mandatory ~everywhere by now?

EDIT: Huh. Apparently they are _not_ required in the US (except maybe in apartment buildings) and are not common there. Weird; they're not very expensive.

Maybe it's an American Rugged Individualism thing. While I find the flame failure devices in my gas stove extremely irritating (they're particularly conservative, and won't reliably acknowledge that there's a flame until about 5 seconds after it's lit) I recognise that they are for my own good; this is probably very European thinking, though :)

Re: A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now

#265

Post by Night_Thastus »

starbugs wrote: post #3

> Thing is, producing crappy, cookie-cutter, uninspired, overpriced junk that falls apart within 5 years (generously speaking) pays more to the shareholders. That's how we got from there to here. This summarizes it quite well for me.

I get a little tired of repeating this, but there are some good reasons why fridges (and most appliances) are the way they are now:

* Strong regulation on energy use by appliances (modern fridges are much, much more efficient than ones from 70 years ago)

* Extreme competition from companies all over the world

* Consumers who care more about convenience and cost above all else, and reliability basically not at all

These 3 are why modern appliances are not as reliable. It is not a conspiracy. It is not lazy manufacturers. It is pressure from consumers and government that made things this way.

Take HVAC, which is a great example. Regulations have required far greater efficiency. So what happens? You get things like variable-frequency drives. These can slow down the fans in low-load scenarios. However, they also add another failure point. And speaking of fans, many evaporators now use plastic fans instead of metal ones. And guess what? They crack a lot more than the metal ones ever did. But they're lighter and thus more efficient.

It's like that with everything. Just take a look at modern clothes washer agitators compared to the old ones.

The other problem is really with consumers. All (the vast majority of) consumers care about is convenience, cost, and looks. They want a fridge that has the ice maker and the water dispenser, stainless steel, french double door, etc. They don't care about the reputation of the brand - they just buy the cheapest one that fits those checkboxes. That leads manufacturers to cut cost as much as possible - especially since they now have to compete with companies all over the world with cheap labor, which 70 years ago was not nearly as true.

Re: A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now

#266

Post by Broken_Hippo »

masklinn wrote: post #91
rascul wrote: post #4

A lot of those features are available in today's fridges. Also, they use less power today. And you really don't have to get one with wifi and a touchscreen.

A lot of those features also seem quite debatable. - The big pile of fruits and veggies is a good way to pressure-bruise them, and also to trap ethylene, and you can usually get the crisper drawers out so not sure I see the difference. - Special compartments for butter and cheese are a completely unnecessary lack of flexibility. - Metal roll-out trays / drawers exist in high-end fridges, there are also drawer fridges…

* why would you move those to a bucket of ice cubes losing 1/3rd the freezer space and congealing the cubes together? *

I use a portion of my freezer space for ice cubes. I make a batch of ice in the ice machine, and then freeze it until it gets low and/or used. My fridge doesn't have an ice machine and this uses less freezer space than ice cube trays.

I use the ice to make delicious alcoholic drinks, and would happily make more ice than I ever though I'd need just to avoid having to make it when inconvenient.

Re: A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now

#267

Post by jpl56 »

Last year I almost needed to replace my 20-yo fridge because of temperature issues, condensation and short bulb life.

New equivalent fridges didn't even had a door for spreadable butter, so I didn't buy any without continuing searching bot the best one.

Then I realized the lamp never turns off when I close the door. The door sensor isn't easy to replace, I just removed the bulb and bought a rechargeable closet lamp with a movement sensor online. 12 euros. Problem solved.

Btw I read here I should check the power consumption, we have a rather easy way to do it in France.

Re: A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now

#268

Post by rsynnott »

kjkjadksj wrote: post #248
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only thing $7k buys you is a nice brand name and maybe slightly more solid construction than a much cheaper unit.) Typically you also get: more BTUs, better simmer control, easier repairability (due to construction design). I'm not arguing it's worth the money (which is why I got my $15k stove from craigslist for $2k :)

Three things that hardly matter for thousands. You can still boil water and simmer with the cheap stove. My parents stove is probably well over two decades old and never needed a repair for anything. I imagine a techician will have an easier time repairing a basic gas range where all the parts are generic compared to getting the miele certified mechanic out or whatever.

People who are just boiling water and simmering probably aren't buying the expensive stove, tho.

Re: A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now

#269

Post by hoosieree »

LorenPechtel wrote: post #246
seer wrote: post #160

A side not I always wondered why don't we have refrigerator models that are "split system" as we have with ACs. As it stands now it's a heat pump that pumps the heat from your refrigerator into your home. Wouldn't it be possible to create way more energy efficient model that has an outside body? Or even better connects to the AC body you already have outside? Like in the summer it would "help" the AC by being another…

While I really like the idea of a split system approach you run into some big installation issues. Namely, the refrigerant is a restricted product that can only be handled by licensed professionals. Thus, what I would like to see is a system where the refrigerator has two air pipes to the outside and a concept of heating/cooling load. It would have an ambient temperature thermostat that would say to reject heat indoo…

I wonder if it would be worthwhile to water-cool the refrigerator's condenser coils, and use the heated water as input for a dishwasher or kitchen sink.

Re: A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the fridge I own now

#270

Post by marricks »

542458 wrote: post #179
marricks wrote: post #5

Some of those fridges are refurbished and still around[1]! It's my dream to own one someday when my fridge from the 90's dies. Every couple years there's a HN link to a blog post about how those appliances were built better in the day. Couple highlights I remember were: - Parts were dipped in paint rather than sprayed leading to fuller and thicker paint coverage - Motors had some changes so were actually built to las…

> Parts were dipped in paint rather than sprayed leading to fuller and thicker paint coverage This doesn't sound right to me... You can apply powdercoats much thicker than wet paint because the lack of an evaporating liquid carrier means much less worry about runs and sags. Modern powdercoats can also be much harder than traditional wet paints, and often more chemical resistant. They're also better for the environmen…

Hey man, take that up with the post I read 5 years ago on HN and didn’t link to.

More seriously, if I find the time I’ll try to link to it.

I’m sure there’s a better way to paint things now but I think we often don’t for appliances.

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