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At this company, we are family

pboyd.io

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Re: At this company, we are family

#261

Post by sokoloff »

RajT88 wrote: post #247
Aurornis wrote: post #224

When I was young I worked at a company that said things like "we are family" and kind of meant it. It wasn't really a good thing unless you were a low performer. We had some people who were hired into jobs they couldn't do well, but they got to keep those jobs because it was like their role in the family. People basically never got fired, including the couple guys in the corner who barely did any work but had been th…

I contracted at a company once which operated like a family. Once you got hired, it was really difficult to get fired. So much so, most people there hadn't heard about anyone ever getting fired. Eventually, someone heard through the grapevine what a firing offense was: Getting caught having sex on the company campus with a coworker. But! The first time was a warning. That company had soooo much money to burn. Lots of…

> what a firing offense was: Getting caught having sex on the company campus with a coworker.

If both/all people are consenting, that might be slightly tacky, but surely shouldn't be a fireable offense.

Re: At this company, we are family

#262

Post by sokoloff »

chinchilla2020 wrote: post #253
jedberg wrote: post #156

This is why I always liked Netflix's outlook (both stated and practiced): We are a sports team, not a family. Perform well and you will be paid well, perform poorly and you will get a nice check to go elsewhere. And sometimes you might perform really well but we just don't need someone with your skills anymore, so we'll still give you nice check to go elsewhere, and that isn't a reflection on your abilities.

Netflix can do that because they pay as well as sports teams do. If you offer me a typical tech job at 1/20th of what a netflix engineer makes, don't expect me to perform like Michael Jordan. Sports team dedicate their entire life to performance. 80 hour weeks are nothing to them. Their diet, sleep, and personal lives are part of their jobs. I don't want a typical tech shop to have that sort of control over me unless…

Netflix is paying much closer to 2x on the cash side than 10x, let alone 20x.

https://www.levels.fyi/companies/netflix/salaries/software-e...

Re: At this company, we are family

#263

Post by chinchilla2020 »

jraby3 wrote: post #40
FredPret wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you so sarcastically point out, Americans give up many employment rights such as these. But it's not a one-way street. Being easier to fire makes American employees easier to hire, which is at least in part responsible for much higher pay in the USA compared to employee havens such as Europe. Furthermore, Americans tend to pay less tax. This isn't usually thought of as an employee rights issue, but in my mind, kee…

I’m not convinced Americans pay less in taxes. When you include state taxes, social security from the employee and employer, then it starts to look like much less of a difference. When you include health insurance and college education, Americans get much less value. I do agree with the first half of your comment. American labor laws make it easier to fire which allows employers to take more risk in hiring.

> I'm not convinced Americans pay less in taxes

They do. It's been quantified. There are many states with no income tax.

A 230k salary and corporate health insurance is going to put you ahead of almost every European software shop.

I love Germany and enjoyed my time there, but I choose to work in the states and have the financial security that can only be gained by saving money from a high salary.

Still, I would love to see some friction added to the layoff process in the US. Perhaps larger mandatory severance periods. Make layoffs possible, but not easy.

Re: At this company, we are family

#264

Post by RajT88 »

sokoloff wrote: post #261
RajT88 wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I contracted at a company once which operated like a family. Once you got hired, it was really difficult to get fired. So much so, most people there hadn't heard about anyone ever getting fired. Eventually, someone heard through the grapevine what a firing offense was: Getting caught having sex on the company campus with a coworker. But! The first time was a warning. That company had soooo much money to burn. Lots of…

> what a firing offense was: Getting caught having sex on the company campus with a coworker. If both/all people are consenting, that might be slightly tacky, but surely shouldn't be a fireable offense.

I never got the full story, but I wager there's more details to the story which would raise your eyebrows.

Re: At this company, we are family

#265

Post by pseg134 »

JohnFen wrote: post #243
hdivider wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, sadly HN does seem to have a high proportion of folks who don't seem to understand the value of human connection. Everything is about technology. But not all mission statements are meaningless, and not all attempts by executives to create a family-like culture come from a bad place. Much of it comes from a good place, and it often works. But people who experience this I think are less likely to write on HN.

The reason I consider an employer saying "we are a family here" problematic is because it's obviously untrue. My family will support me no matter what. My family will never fire me. My family actually loves me. None of those things are true with an employer.

Well sure if you approach the situation with a dictionary definition of family you will be disappointed. And to be honest your definition of family is from a hallmark card. That isn’t most people’s experience.

Re: At this company, we are family

#266

Post by cryptonector »

downut wrote: post #211
cryptonector wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When you include state taxes, social security from the employee and employer, then it starts to look like much less of a difference. When you count just the taxes we definitely pay less, especially in places like Texas and Florida. Well, I suppose there's the budget deficit and national debt to consider, though yours aren't exactly great either. Well, except that there's a middle income trap with social security ta…

"As for medical, the only coverage I want is catastrophic, and if I could just just get that then health care would be way cheaper. Health care providers generally have much lower prices when you have no insurance and pay out of pocket." I've had several chronic issues, including cancer surgery and the followon therapies, that I in no way wanted, that stretched out years, ensuring that we (the family) spent our ~$10K…

All of this is due to a) ACA, b) the whole HMO craze in the 90s, and c) long before that, ERISA, oh and also: lack of pricing transparency, and lack of incentives to users to check pricing, and so on and on.

We don't have a free market in health care unless you have no coverage, then you can actually negotiate prices. What we have is a monster, and the monster we have today is way way worse than the monster we had in the early 90s.

Not that it helps to say these things. Most of you are either a) bigtech employees with nice healthcare plans and maybe don't care that much (until you're no longer bigtech), or b) fintech employees (same), or c) too young to remember what 80%/20% plans were like back in the day (or never had a non-$WORK plan) and therefore all too willing to demand and/or accept any purported solution that isn't. I hope it helps to say these things here.

Meanwhile we've had a lot of factors pushing up inflation in medical services, so when you add it all up it sucks, but it sucks for all sorts of artificial reasons.

Re: At this company, we are family

#267

Post by rahimnathwani »

RestlessMind wrote: post #212
TylerE wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not as cheap as it used to be. Here in NC, just those last 2 years at a state school, instate costs (NOT including lodging or other living expenses) are almost $40,000. Not nothing.

Do you have any sources? I looked at the closest community college for me (De Anza) and it's tuition is 19,950 including 11,796 for room and board. Without that, since most college kids can live with parents, it's less than 8000[1]. And this is in SV, one of the most expensive places in the US. [1] https://www.deanza.edu/financialaid/apply/cost.html

GP is talking about the last 2 years, not the first 2 years.

Re: At this company, we are family

#268

Post by chinchilla2020 »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #133
SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with employees free to move around and chart their own destiny What about the European system prevents that for the employee?

>What about the European system prevents that for the employee? From personal experience: 1. Less employment opportunities due to no VC funding, and risk averse mentality of entrepreneurs meaning next to no big EU SW product companies. That's why the best paying jobs in EU tech scene are mostly US companies, which also tend to be clustered in only a few cities in the EU, where housing is now a major issue. 2. Employm…

Never experienced #3 in Europe. Language barrier is a non-issue since most countries are fluent in English.

#4 is definitely a bit of an issue. Europe is surprisingly regressive, even compared to the US. Lots of rude comments towards non-white coworkers.

Re: At this company, we are family

#269

Post by Brusco_RF »

JohnFen wrote: post #241
aae42 wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> much of that team cohesiveness happens outside of work hours whaaaa? is this a common view? doing team building on personal time seems... off. To me. remember taking my small IT team out for lunches on the company dime, and even to the movies... we even went to an escape room once... but this was all during the work day...

I think there's a large cultural component here. I've never worked at a place where any significant "team building" took place outside of work hours, but I know many devs (mostly outside the US) who told me that it does.

I've always had these events outside work hours. We get paid to work. After work, the company is buying us drinks but not paying us to drink them. Where's the problem?

Re: At this company, we are family

#270

Post by Brusco_RF »

JohnFen wrote: post #239
Brusco_RF wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look I'm not saying you need to stay out drinking until 10pm but team-building is important to any job, especially if you're a leader, and much of that team cohesiveness happens outside of work hours. It's not too surprising if skipping all team-building events results in... not being a part of the team

> much of that team cohesiveness happens outside of work hours. How is that not unpaid labor?

Because it's voluntary and they're buying your food/drinks?
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