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You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

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Re: You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

#261

Post by vikingerik »

pg_1234 wrote: post #171
vikingerik wrote: post #85

The underlying triangle here: Out of time, scope, and quality, you can pick two to specify but you can't constrain all three. Scrum specifies fixed time and quality ("definition of done"), with scope as the flexible variable, as tasks get pushed out of each sprint. Kanban specifies fixed scope and quality, letting time be the floating factor for each task. Waterfall specifies fixed time and scope, with the inevitable…

Actually the most effective strategy I've seen is Kanban, but with a fixed release deadline. Inevitably there are some essential tickets and some nice-to-have tickets. For the nice-to-haves it's a case of progress or die. Think of it as time constrained Kanban with semi-fixed scope. The dropped tickets may carry over to a later release (if there is one), or just die forever (make it easy to cull bullshit). P.S. From…

That's functionally scrum anyway, you're just not calling it that to avoid the ceremony, yeah.

Re: You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

#262

Post by re-thc »

hgsgm wrote: post #236
re-thc wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s the theory but it doesn’t help managers so they still convert it back to time somehow.

Scrum was never for managers. If a manager is involved in predictions, it's not scrum. Scrum is about delivering the best you can each month, with client/management setting priorities and then appreciating what they get, instead of trying to steer the car from the boot.

Sure, I get what scrum is. "Scrum" in the real world isn't that though - at least 80% of the common case (check the other comments).

Re: You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

#263

Post by fendy3002 »

hgsgm wrote: post #230
fendy3002 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is even scrum doesn't give the predictability and observability better than kanban. It's extremely hard to predict what we need to do in next 2 weeks and what we can achieve in next 2 weeks. At my current company, half, if not more, of the tickets come in mid-sprint. So even though the current company is using scrum, in my team I treat it as kanban with story point limited, meaning I start with a certain…

Scrum is t really designed for an ops team. It's for product dev teams that need to organize and plan their work.

This is for product dev team though, not ops. Don't get me wrong, it's easy to plan works that take less than 7 work days or more than 14 work days, assuming the sprint is 10 work days.

Planning one that's near to 9-11 work days is the hard part.

Re: You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

#264

Post by fendy3002 »

emodendroket wrote: post #125
fendy3002 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is even scrum doesn't give the predictability and observability better than kanban. It's extremely hard to predict what we need to do in next 2 weeks and what we can achieve in next 2 weeks. At my current company, half, if not more, of the tickets come in mid-sprint. So even though the current company is using scrum, in my team I treat it as kanban with story point limited, meaning I start with a certain…

If the sprint commitment gets bounced in favor of stuff coming in mid-sprint, they in itself might be useful information to someone who’s interested.

But the reality is you cannot hope for management to realize it, and for a good reason. If reprioritize a new feature can bring more revenue compared to original plan, or if a better flow is now available due to other team's completed task, or if a severe bug is discovered someday, it's just logical to reprioritize.

Re: You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

#265

Post by seniorThrowaway »

ptmcc wrote: post #107
gre wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did scrum once and we were literally always sprinting. The daily standup consisted of trying to think of excuses why the multiweek task wasn't completed (like they expected) and one dude who "zereo'd his inbox" every day.

That the iteration unit of scrum/agile is called a sprint is a huuuuge pet peeve of mine. Sprinting is definitionally an unsustainable pace. I know, I know, it's just a label applied to the cycle time of the process but labels matter and I think it subtly and subconsciously poisons the whole thing. Especially when managers and PMs start making sprint cycles into hard deadlines.

>making sprint cycles into hard deadlines

One of the tipoffs that you are working under fake agile not real agile. I have the same problem with using the word "sprint" as well, but I think the true issue is that most orgs claim to be "agile" when they are actually doing some variety of waterfall with agile verbiage thrown in. The best test for fake agile is if you can't cancel the daily standup, even for a couple of days, via the retro.

Re: You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

#266

Post by re-thc »

Gareth321 wrote: post #241
re-thc wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make it all sound like a factory and blame developers for going rogue. That’s not how it works. It’s as though developers are dumb and can only execute if you tell them to do exactly as needed. Rather where’s the leadership and direction? Perhaps that’s not clear or the developers don’t even agree with what’s going on. You statement is so 1-sided. If someone is not performing you shouldn’t need scrum to work that…

It's not about blame. Developers are paid to develop. They're not paid to care about the interlocking parts, so many of them don't. It's not an indictment. It's just what it is. They have a different set of skills. > Rather where’s the leadership and direction? We're right here, implementing scrum for the reasons I listed. > If someone is not performing you shouldn’t need scrum to work that out otherwise you have big…

> It's not about blame. Developers are paid to develop. They're not paid to care about the interlocking parts, so many of them don't. It's not an indictment. It's just what it is. They have a different set of skills.

That's the problem. That's not how it used to work and we've lost that. Developers are a lot more than develop. If you really think you need to pay someone 200-500k in better places to just "develop"; there's the problem.

Software exceeded because developers innovated and did a lot more than that. Shrinking them to just robots is where the problem starts and you can hire copy/paste "developers" for a lot less.

> I have found that poor performance is often not because an employee is "bad."

My point being and as you've actually explained - it still has nothing to do with scrum.

> Sure, there's no point in any of the work you do if you're being told to develop things that no one wants. My baseline assumption here is that the business has need of your work. If it doesn't, you should brush up no your CV.

The business has need for work - it doesn't make it a useful feature. What the client wants and what gets trickled down after 10 layers is a different story.

> If the four months gives me something no one wants, I'll take the year.

How do you keep concluding no 1 wants it?

> That's the whole discussion: how best to follow the plan. I don't think it's as easy as criticising developers for "not following the plan" if we don't provide a strong foundation in which to do so. Cue scrum.

Point being scrum doesn't provide this foundation. Read the comments. You lose long term planning and try to squeeze everything in 2 week compartments = find quick wins and hack everything so it fits. It's a disaster. What happens as other have explained is the estimates get padded. People do less work. People are unhappy and you're just left with the illusion of "success".

US and in particular SF didn't succeed on this but on elevating developers to innovate. Please don't kill it.

Re: You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

#267

Post by esafak »

DangitBobby wrote: post #92
esafak wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This provides more visibility and granularity, increasing confidence and satisfaction of customers.

How? How is pulling 10 points of work into every two week sprint "more visible" or "granular" than pulling anything as it comes up at a velocity of 5 points per week? I'm not even being contrarian, I truly don't understand how sprints could be better than knocking down a work queue.

Scrum informs the customer that their ticket will be processed in the next sprint or not. It gives visibility into the future. A Kanban backlog, which is unordered, only tells them if their ticket is being worked on now.

Re: You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

#268

Post by [deleted] »

emodendroket wrote: post #249
gilbetron wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Constructions remains a terrible analogy for software development, as it always has been.

Would you agree to pay for any service where not even an estimate of the price could be given? I guess healthcare is the only example I can think of where anyone consents to that.

[deleted]

Re: You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

#269

Post by esafak »

dragonwriter wrote: post #156
esafak wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This provides more visibility and granularity, increasing confidence and satisfaction of customers.

It provides less granularity and visibility, but it provides regular, well-defined touch points. OTOH, nothing stops you from having biweekly reviews with customers in Kanban, or delivery goals on the same cycle that guide decisions of which work items to pull in and whether to allocate more effort or defer ones that run into unexpected complexity. There’s no reason to (and plenty of reason not to) build a work-shoul…

A kanban with periodic commitments to the next batch of tickets to be worked on is functionally scrum to me.

Re: You don't need Scrum, you just need to do Kanban right (2022)

#270

Post by kqr »

emodendroket wrote: post #259
kqr wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meh. The time it takes to complete a project is usually somewhat flexible. What really matters is how valuable the project is. That is what needs to be estimated explicitly, and not just "I really like these two ideas lets do the cheaper one".

How can you estimate "value" without any idea what resources are needed or what else you will have to forgo to pursue the project?

Value meaning roughly revenue, not profit.
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