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Htmx Is the Future

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Re: Htmx Is the Future

#261

Post by [deleted] »

v0idzer0 wrote: post #234
PaulHoule wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember that all the web shops in my town that did Ruby on Rails sites efficiently felt they had to switch to Angular about the same time and they never regained their footing in the Angular age although it seems they can finally get things sorta kinda done with React. Client-side validation is used as an excuse for React but we were doing client-side validation in 1999 with plain ordinary Javascript. If the real…

It really wasnt about client side validation or UX at all. You can have great UX with an MPA or SPA. Although I do think it’s slightly easier in an SPA if you have a complex client like a customizable dashboard. Ultimately it’s about splitting your app into a server and client with a clear API bounday. Decoupling the client and server means they can be separate teams with clearly definied roles and responsibilities.…

[deleted]

Re: Htmx Is the Future

#262

Post by recursivedoubts »

pdonis wrote: post #221
recursivedoubts wrote: post #39

i am the creator of htmx, this is a great article that touches on a lot of the advantages of the hypermedia approach (two big ones: simplicity & it eliminates the two-codebase problem, which puts pressure on teams to adopt js on the backend even if it isn't the best server side option) hypermedia isn't ideal for everything[1], but it is an interesting & useful technology and libraries like htmx make it much more rele…

The article under discussion here appears to be saying that HTMX can work without Javascript enabled. But HTMX itself is a Javascript library, correct? So how can it work without Javascript enabled?

the article says it is possible to build web applications that use htmx for a smoother experience if javascript is enabled, but that properly falls back to vanilla HTML if js is not enabled

this is called progressive enhancement[1], and yes, htmx can be used in this manner although it requires some effort by the developer

unpoly, another hypermedia-oriented front end library, is more seamless in this regard and worth looking at

[1] - https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Glossary/Progressiv...

Re: Htmx Is the Future

#263

Post by elliottinvent »

pdonis wrote: post #221
recursivedoubts wrote: post #39

i am the creator of htmx, this is a great article that touches on a lot of the advantages of the hypermedia approach (two big ones: simplicity & it eliminates the two-codebase problem, which puts pressure on teams to adopt js on the backend even if it isn't the best server side option) hypermedia isn't ideal for everything[1], but it is an interesting & useful technology and libraries like htmx make it much more rele…

The article under discussion here appears to be saying that HTMX can work without Javascript enabled. But HTMX itself is a Javascript library, correct? So how can it work without Javascript enabled?

I think the point is that by using HTMX your site can degrade gracefully for non-JS users.

A site for a project of mine [1] is built with HTMX and operates more or less the same for JS and no-JS users.

I’m aiming to add some bells and whistles for JS users but the version you see there is more or less the experience non-JS users gets too:

1. https://www.compactdata.org

Re: Htmx Is the Future

#264

Post by listenallyall »

dfabulich wrote: post #217
jgoodhcg wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've spent almost my entire career working on react based SPAs and react native mobile apps. I've just started playing around with HTMX. > no good story for what happens when one component in a tree needs to update another component in the tree HTMX has a decent answer to this. Any component can target replacement for any other component. So if the state of everything on the page changes then re-render the whole page…

> Do we actually need optimistic UI? Some apps need to work in offline mode sure, like offline maps or audiobooks or something. The HTMX author agrees, this is not the solution for that. Most of the stuff I have worked on though ... is useless without an internet connection. > It's basically the speed of the network. Does your stuff work on mobile web? Mobile web requests can easily take seconds, and on a dodgy conne…

In the case of bad internet connection, "optimistic UI" is the worst solution. User thinks the data he entered has persisted, but in fact it has not. Big surprise months later when he realizes his boss's birthday reminder never got saved to his calendar.

Re: Htmx Is the Future

#265

Post by nawgz »

vb-8448 wrote: post #251
nawgz wrote: post #15

I'm sorry, but these arguments are so tired. > SPAs have allowed engineers to create some great web applications, but they come with a cost: > Hugely increased complexity both in terms of architecture and developer experience. You have to spend considerable time learning about frameworks. Yes, better quality software usually packages a bit more complexity. SPAs are popular, just like native apps, because people don't…

> Imagine some cool feature like... collaborative editing. In my opinion, the whole point of the article and for everyone who is backing htmx is that SPA frameworks are too complex (and a liability) for solo/small teams or projects that don't need `collaborative editing`(or other advanced stuff).

> In my opinion, the whole point of the article

Well, in my opinion, the article claims "HTMX is the future" as its title, and so it's impossible to interpret the arguments in any other way than "the user experience benefits of the SPA might matter to the users, but I think it's stupid because I dislike JS"

Re: Htmx Is the Future

#266

Post by revelio »

0xbadcafebee wrote: post #115

I just want Visual Basic for the web man. Screw writing lines of code. I want to point and click, drop complex automated objects onto a design, put in the inputs and outputs, and publish it. I don't care how you do it, I don't want to know any of the details. I just want to be able to make things quickly and easily. I don't care about programming, I just want to get work done and move on with my life. At this rate, w…

There's a lot of low-code platforms that do that.

Re: Htmx Is the Future

#267

Post by marcosdumay »

obpe wrote: post #3

It's kinda funny to me that many of the "pros" of this approach are the exact reasons so many abandoned MPAs in the first place. For instance, a major selling point of Node was running JS on both the client and server so you can write the code once. It's a pretty shitty client experience if you have to do a network request for each and every validation of user input. Also, there was a push to move the shitty code fro…

> But that isn't because of the technology

Technically, the technology support doing any of them right. On practice, doing good MPAs require offloading as much as you can into the mature and well developed platforms that handle them; while doing good SPAs require overriding the behavior of your immature and not thoroughly designed platforms on nearly every point and handling it right.

Technically, it's just a difference on platform maturity. Technically those things tend to correct themselves given some time.

On practice, almost no SPA has worked minimally well in more than a decade.

Re: Htmx Is the Future

#268

Post by hamilyon2 »

I am not going to be serious here, because, honestly, this is kind of ridiculous.

Two years ago I distinctly remember server side rendering piped thru websocket was future.

I also like how demo is visibly ugly, jQuery-style ugly. It's nostalgic in a way. And I swear to gods this approach will break back button. And resending form after network error. And expired cookie will of course result in your input being lost.

Re: Htmx Is the Future

#269

Post by the_gastropod »

pdonis wrote: post #221
recursivedoubts wrote: post #39

i am the creator of htmx, this is a great article that touches on a lot of the advantages of the hypermedia approach (two big ones: simplicity & it eliminates the two-codebase problem, which puts pressure on teams to adopt js on the backend even if it isn't the best server side option) hypermedia isn't ideal for everything[1], but it is an interesting & useful technology and libraries like htmx make it much more rele…

The article under discussion here appears to be saying that HTMX can work without Javascript enabled. But HTMX itself is a Javascript library, correct? So how can it work without Javascript enabled?

H̶T̶M̶X̶ e̶m̶b̶r̶a̶c̶e̶s̶ t̶h̶e̶ i̶d̶e̶a̶ o̶f̶ p̶r̶o̶g̶r̶e̶s̶s̶i̶v̶e̶ e̶n̶h̶a̶n̶c̶e̶m̶e̶n̶t̶ [̶1̶]. Y̶o̶u̶ s̶t̶a̶r̶t̶ w̶i̶t̶h̶ a̶ f̶u̶n̶c̶t̶i̶o̶n̶a̶l̶, j̶a̶v̶a̶s̶c̶r̶i̶p̶t̶-̶f̶r̶e̶e̶, w̶e̶b̶ a̶p̶p̶l̶i̶c̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶. H̶T̶M̶X̶ l̶a̶y̶e̶r̶s̶ o̶n̶ t̶o̶p̶ o̶f̶ t̶h̶i̶s̶ t̶o̶ ̶m̶a̶k̶e̶ t̶h̶e̶ e̶x̶p̶e̶r̶i̶e̶n̶c̶e̶ b̶e̶t̶t̶e̶r̶, b̶u̶t̶ i̶t̶'s̶ e̶f̶f̶e̶c̶t̶i̶v̶e̶l̶y̶ o̶p̶t̶i̶o̶n̶a̶l̶.

[1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Glossary/Progressiv...

Whoa... I was very slow apparently

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