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Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

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Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#261
This is a larger blow to smaller universities like UTSA and UTD that finally have budding research programs. I really wish the Texas government would stay out of people's lives. This is just another bill in the long line of bills this year intended to kill "wokeness". Our government doesn't give a single care about education. As long as they think they can get conforming, uninformed youth out of something, they'll do anything.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt they will have much problem finding people who are qualified to teach. But it's going to make it more difficult to continue hiring people who are seen as some of the best in the world in in-demand areas.

But will it affect their football recruiting?

That is the real question.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#263
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assistant professors (tenure track) in decent public business schools start at $300k salary. And this is in the Midwest. And I know that the top private business schools pay more, just that it isn’t public information like it is at the public universities. Now obviously those people would likely be paid higher salaries in the private sector (even CoL adjusted) but the economics of it ensures that pay for professors o…

What are those universities? In Pacific Northwest it's only 100-150k for Assistant Prof from what I've seen.

It’s specifically for profs in the business school, who are in very high demand from the private sector. For many other departments those figures are correct.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of hiring faculty isn't to have a collection of impressive faculty doing cutting edge work. Otherwise, you'd get the same effect by funding corporate R&D research. I mean, yes, they can collect more federal grant resources, but that's not why a state government wants to fund it. Prestige is one factor, but it's not the only factor... because you're right, funding the rat race isn't the point. The point is t…

The smartest people in a field are not necessarily the best at training, especially if they care more about their own research end goals than trainee outcomes and/or have never gotten proper guidance on how to effectively mentor. Whether someone would be/is a good graduate student mentor is a total side dish when it comes to hiring and tenure decisions too. Grants, publications, professional connections, research top…

Some are though. Sean Carroll immediately comes to mind.

https://www.aip.org/history-programs/niels-bohr-library/oral...

I don't have an opinion about the bill, but thought this anecdote was relevant.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#265

I’m skeptical that tenure is good for students, I knew so many teachers that just didn’t much care for their work and probably would have been fired if not for tenure. I understand the arguments in favor of tenure, particularly when it comes to recruitment, but given the bloated pipeline into academia, I’m not sure they hold.

Tenure is like the jury system, in that it has a political and an administrative aspect. The administrative aspects have drawbacks (patent cases in certain jurisdictions, bad teachers unfireable). But I don't think that the legislature has the improvement of undergraduate teaching in mind.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#266
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems to me that something so simple couldn't possibly work... Well, what kind of knowledge do you have of university internals? Most people here on HN who want to get rid of university admin are on the outside looking in, and find it very hard to understand what all the admin do. In my experience, when I start to explain that a university is more like a town than a school, and "admin" are in fact the people who…

Here's the problem with your "admins are so absolutely necessary" argument. Per https://mndaily.com/193678/uncategorized/statistics-show-inc... between 1999 and 2010 admin jobs increased 75% across universities. Per https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2021/11/10/reluctance-on-the-... over the last 20 years, the number of managerial and professional staff that Yale employs has risen three times faster than the undergraduat…

> the number of managerial and professional staff that Yale employs has risen three times faster than the undergraduate student body.

Implicit here is that there is or should be some sort of linear or sublinear relationship to admin and the student body. If the number of admin grows faster than the student body, is that strange, and is it bad?

1) is that strange?

It's not clear this is strange. First, Universities are highly modular organizations, so there's a lot of duplicated effort. Let's say it takes 5 faculty, and 3 admin to run a department that services 10 students. We open a new department and double our students, so we have 10 faculty, 6 admin, and 20 students. But now with all those students, we need two Teaching Assistants. Turns out that hiring an admin to manage the teaching assistants frees 2 faculty to do more research, so we hire another admin to do that. Student population stays the same. The students need a health center now because the local health facilities are insufficient, so now we need to open a whole health center and that requires 3 new staff with 2 admins. So admin has grown again with no new students.

You see how this can go? For a place line Yale or Stanford, which offer full hospitals, law schools, giant sport facilities, manages dozens of buildings, hundreds of programs and degrees, food services, safety services, IT services, library services... all of these things require coordination and management, and that can easily balloon without adding a single new student.

2) is that bad?

Now, the argument is usually that the students don't need all these things. Well first of all, the standards are much higher than they were even when I was in school in the 2000s. Back then research at an undergraduate level was optional, these days it's required or you are not competitive as a candidate. What does that mean? It means more undergrads in research, so we need more faculty support for undergraduate research experiences. That means freeing up faculty time with services like graders, research offices, legal offices, tutoring support, student services, and all the administrators that go with that. But it frees up faculty time to work 1:1 with students, which, was the goal.

However if you look at that from the outside, you see "administrative bloat". Take all that away without understanding the why, and you end up with fewer administrators, but the faculty have to do more work now chasing grant money and grading. If you don't want them to be doing that, we need to figure out as a society how to dole out research grants, but until then, it is what it is.

Secondly though, universities aren't just for students. My argument is in fact they are towns, and they are there for everyone there. Students, faculty, staff, admins, the general public, the cafeteria workers, the IT people, the librarians, police, the children at the campus daycare, program director at the arts center, the sports facility managers... everyone. A university is a livable, walkable, self-contained town where everyone is focused and oriented on the pursuit of higher education. What a great thing to have in our society, which by and large is oriented around the pursuit of profit.

I think the more our society becomes focused on profit, the more universities will be forced to grow their scope. If we want them to dial back, let's invest in our local communities.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think “nearly everyone” is a correct assessment. The current conservative coalition includes a lot of Gen X and Millennials. In 2022, the D advantage among voters 30-44 in 2022 was down to 4 points: https://i0.wp.com/www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2022/... . These are folks who grew up in the 1990s in a much more permissive free speech culture. These are not necessarily the same folks as the ones in the…

Most of the types of speech the current conservative movement dislikes did not have a lot of people prominently voicing that speech in the 90s. They did have a lot of speech against them in the 90s. It's easy to spot that backlash complaint - "I used to be able to say this in the 90s" - but from what I'm seeing, it's a mistake to think the motivation is "more speech for everyone" and not "this should still be allowed…

I don’t think that’s correct. Many of today’s “barstool conservatives” were 18-29 year olds who voted for Obama. It wasn’t taboo in those groups to say “gay marriage is fine.” I don’t they want that to go back in the closet. They’re upset because the culture shifted and they can’t freely respond to new assertions.

In a way it’s like tattoos. Trump rallies are chock full of them somehow. These folks aren’t clinging to their parents taboos, their reasons for being conservative are different.

(Of course that’s true of liberals too. A lot of the “follow the social norms and watch what you say” people migrated to the Democratic Party over the last couple of decades. This is especially apparent in affluent, highly educated suburbs where there has been major changes in voting patterns without necessarily significant changes in culture.)

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I struggle to see how this benefits Texas , though. Education is an investment in the future; encouraging the best professors to go elsewhere is like saying you want the future to happen elsewhere. Maybe that's what Texas wants, but universities usually bring startups and high-tech jobs along with them. It kinda reminds me of how Texas wanted to get in on the blockchain hype, so they passed legislation making it extr…

It's almost as though the state leadership is utterly incompetent :)

It's intentional. One of the biggest threats to authoritarians is an educated electorate.

All of this is part of a larger war on public education in Texas:

Book bans, accusing librarians of stocking pornographic material, pushing radical conservatives into school boards, accusing public grades schools of teaching CRT, passing blatantly unconstitutional bills to force religion into public schools (like the one forcing the ten commandants to be displayed today), and trying to defund public schools by pushing the voucher program for unregulated privatized schooling.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#269
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO, right now, tenure is the only edge Academia has in many areas of STEM compared to industrial labs. Other countries have suppressed tenure in the past, Denmark comes to mind, and this scared tons of great faculty.

The main edge is freedom in research topic (at least to the extent of what granting agencies are willing to fund), and freedom in publishing your ideas and results as you see fit. Tenure is a ridiculous gamble right now. Getting a tenure track position at a major research university in most fields if you do everything right is something like a 10% chance after multiple years of dreadfully paid and generally poorly tr…

> The main edge is freedom in research topic

The way I see things, freedom is a consequence of tenure. Or at least it was intended to be like that. If you want to pursue ground-breaking ideas, you might not publish for a while. If you are tenured this doesn't matter much. If you aren't, it's like playing Russian roulette with your career.

> Tenure is a ridiculous gamble right now

In some systems, you are tenured right from the beginning. For example, in British Academia, most assistant professor positions are permanent and it's not impossible to get one straight after your PhD. However, pay and funding is much lower.

Re: Ban on Tenure for New Faculty Hires Passes Texas Senate

#270
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO, right now, tenure is the only edge Academia has in many areas of STEM compared to industrial labs. Other countries have suppressed tenure in the past, Denmark comes to mind, and this scared tons of great faculty.

>Other countries have suppressed tenure in the past, Denmark comes to mind I could be wrong but I don't think it's correct https://employment.ku.dk/tenure-track/tenure-track-at-ucph/ any links on that?

They call it like that, but you can be fired anytime, even if you are a full professor.
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