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If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

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Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#261

Post by matwood »

Xelynega wrote: post #49
causi wrote: post #19

which made copyrighted books available for free during the COVID-19 pandemic. The publishers behind the lawsuit alleged that this entailed copyright infringement. Along with everybody with two brain cells to rub together. We all screamed "Hey, you idiots are going to ruin everything if you act like the pandemic has magically nullified the concept of copyright" and they fucking did it anyway, and now exactly what we s…

They're not in court for the emergency library. They're in court for the 1-1 CDL lending they did. I'm tired of seeing this "well IA shouldn't have done the emergency library" line. Do you honestly believe the only reason publishers went after IA is the emergency library? I think this would have happened eventually, so pointing to the emergency library does nothing but tell everyone that you were right all along. The…

> Do you honestly believe the only reason publishers went after IA is the emergency library?

Yes, it's even mentioned a few times in the judgement. Publishers didn't like the CDL, but were mostly ignoring it. The NEL forced their hand, even if the lawsuit was not about that directly.

> They operate in a country where precedent is set in a court of law, how did you expect CDL to "get off the ground" if not challenged in a court of law?

If the IA really set up the CDL to have a plausible challenge they would not have shot themselves in the foot with complete lack of implementation controls, and clearly setting up a profit motive. Everyone should be furious at the IA for poisoning the CDL well.

I highly recommend reading the judgement, https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.53...

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#262

Post by rPlayer6554 »

jahsome wrote: post #227
misnome wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flubbed their emergency lending library acronym in my head into -> EA. Edited to clarify.

E-A Books... It's on the Page!

DLC:

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  Authors Note          |  $15.99  |  Buy Now!
  Ability to Bookmark   |  $20.99  |  Buy Now!
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Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#263

Post by TimTheTinker »

tablespoon wrote: post #165
TimTheTinker wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The IA is the only way to see a lot of what was written and widely read starting in the 1990s onwards. Libraries used to keep archives of old newspapers and publications on microfilm, and anyone who needed to research something could go and look through those archives. The IA holds a similar function today - but it's the only one with its breadth and age. If we lose the IA, we lose a lot of important historical infor…

> Libraries used to keep archives of old newspapers and publications on microfilm, and anyone who needed to research something could go and look through those archives. The IA holds a similar function today - but it's the only one with its breadth and age. Newspapers very frequently maintain and provide public access to their own online archives now. That's also not a function the IA is even especially good at--its c…

> The one unique thing the IA does is have is a broad and deep collection of internet ephemera.

That's what I was referring to. Blogs especially are an important source of historical information from this period that will not exist in newspaper archives -- and many of those have appeared and disappeared in the last 20 years. IA is the only record we have of much of that.

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#264

Post by Mezzie »

coldpie wrote: post #24
jsnell wrote: post #7

The title implies that losing this lawsuit is threatening the existence of the Internet Archive. Is that really the case? If it is true, then maybe IA should be run by somebody with better judgement. This was a project with a massive chance of failure (how could anyone think that this wasn't just blatantly infringing?) and a low payoff. If it's also an existential risk, then wtf are they doing running it?

> If it is true, then maybe IA should be run by somebody with better judgement. I'm skeptical that you even get the IA without someone like these folks running it. Imagine you're the type of crazy person who starts and runs the IA, the pandemic starts and libraries and schools shut down, and there's a big button in front of you saying "give people access to knowledge that was just removed from them". I dunno man, I c…

It's an argument for the separation of library and archival work. Access to knowledge and preservation of knowledge are separate things, even if they have a lot in common.

It might be wise for someone to consider a truly archival only organization.

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#265

Post by bombcar »

PuppyTailWags wrote: post #246
0xfffafaCrash wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d argue that copyright and intellectual property more broadly shouldn’t exist. That wouldn’t lead to the end of culture but a cultural explosion as people became able to remix and propagate ideas more freely without the fear of punishment for violating artificial state-enforced monopolies. No one is obligated to create a work and no one is obligated to share their created works with others. There’s no inherent righ…

Then how should any artists make any income at all from their work? I'm not talking about 0.0001% lucky creators with huge compensation. I mean the 70 year old with cancer who cannot write anymore. I mean the 35 year old disabled artist who cannot work a "normal" salaried job. I mean the artist from an underdeveloped country who became popular and now the "wealthy" countries want to translate and publish their work i…

We have the technology now to balance copyright - simply put - if an item is not available for a reasonable price, then the copyright expires or becomes "cannot be sold except by original author" or something. Needing to keep things like books that are currently in print protected shouldn't prevent people from obtaining works that have fallen out of print, apparently irrevocably.

Print-on-demand and digital copies means that even a small author can keep their works available "for pay" easily now.

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#266

Post by piperswe »

boucher wrote: post #205
twblalock wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the Internet Archive's job to be the first one to try to resolve fair use questions like this, and attempting to do so put the organization's orginal core mission at risk. They should have let someone else take the risk, and continued archiving the internet. That is all that most of their supporters expected of them, for good reason. Their attempt to pivot toward being a generic, universal library was bad sc…

Seems to me like the Internet Archive can determine for itself what it's job is, and they've determined that this is in fact part of their core mission. Your perception that their purpose is solely to archive the Internet is at odds with their actual demonstrated activities for many years (the home page says: "Internet Archive is a non-profit library of millions of free books, movies, software, music, websites, and m…

I think people are getting confused by the name - it's an archive _on_ the Internet, not just an archive _of_ the Internet.

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#267

Post by matwood »

causi wrote: post #102
jrmg wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Koeltl's current ruling applies in particular to lending without the waitlist restriction is legal. CDL in general isn't yet ruled on. That’s not the case. The decision is clearly written, and clearly about CDL. https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.53...

Ok, that appears correct. Still, the NEL prompted the suits in the first place and, among other things, proved that when the IA says it cares about the legal rights of publishers and authors it is lying. That's tremendously influential. If CDL had more years to become a regular thing that a significant fraction of people use, it would've had a much better chance in court.

> If CDL had more years to become a regular thing that a significant fraction of people use, it would've had a much better chance in court.

Not as implemented by IA. They admit they had zero controls in place for the 'pool' libraries so they likely had books in circulation in both print and digital at the same time. The also had a side for-profit company selling used print books linked from the digital CDL. This case never had a chance.

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#268

Post by renewiltord »

ncallaway wrote: post #167
ghaff wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a reasonable question. I don't get to call myself an archive or museum and assemble a website of what I consider "culturally important" cartoons or comic strips or whatever. The Wayback Machine basically operates in the zone of most people don't care that they do this.

I mean, they were sued for copyright infringement and settled out of court at least once, so it’s not a negligible risk. I guess my question is largely “Does someone with ‘better judgement’ even start the internet archive?” I don’t have the answer, but I think it’s at least plausible that the answer is “no”.

Ultimately, the Internet Archive is the Man in the Arena. Everyone else didn't choose the right position on what copyright infringement is okay and what isn't. They didn't choose a position at all until post facto they choose the position that was right up against the margin of being sued - which they would never had known if the IA hadn't done the work.

As always, HN commenters would have picked the perfect trade-off every time in the past and yet they somehow never pick the right one in the future. You're being overly kind to everyone here since it's obvious what the truth is: this is wholesale armchair quarterbacking from a bunch of people who would never have built this.

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#269

Post by PuppyTailWags »

bombcar wrote: post #265
PuppyTailWags wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then how should any artists make any income at all from their work? I'm not talking about 0.0001% lucky creators with huge compensation. I mean the 70 year old with cancer who cannot write anymore. I mean the 35 year old disabled artist who cannot work a "normal" salaried job. I mean the artist from an underdeveloped country who became popular and now the "wealthy" countries want to translate and publish their work i…

We have the technology now to balance copyright - simply put - if an item is not available for a reasonable price , then the copyright expires or becomes "cannot be sold except by original author" or something. Needing to keep things like books that are currently in print protected shouldn't prevent people from obtaining works that have fallen out of print, apparently irrevocably. Print-on-demand and digital copies m…

I'm completely comfortable with a "if no one's making it available reasonably, it should be made so" policy. I'm only concerned for living creators to retain rights to their work and be compensated for their creations while they are still actively using their work to give themselves a living, so I would be fine with ensuring work isn't irrevocably lost due to lack of copies.
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